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Pre-tribulation Rapture Myth and the Remnant of Israel May 24, 2011

Posted by Henry in Eschatology & End Times.
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I have done a number of articles in which I have attempted to dispel the myth of the pre-tribulation rapture but in this study I will attempt to approach the subject from a different angle than I have done before.

Numerous studies have so far been carried out and numerous books, articles and blog posts have been written concerning the end times scenarios yet many are completely wide of the mark concerning the realities of those times. One of the popular positions is that the church will be “raptured” (secretly, unbeknownst to the world) sometime prior to the opening of the first Seal mentioned in the Book of Revelations. Following this event it is believed Israel will go through a seven year tribulation period (supposedly Daniel’s 70th week, See Daniel 9). It is believed that at the start of this week (the seven last years of planet earth) the anti-christ will make a covenant with Israel and in the middle of the week (3.5 years later) the anti-christ will break the covenant and cause the sacrifice and oblation offered by the Jews in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (The third temple) to cease. This will be followed by the setting up of the abomination of desolation in the temple culminating with great tribulation at the hands of the anti-christ. It is then believed that it is out of this “hour of trial” that Israel will be saved and will be gathered to meet Jesus at His full appearing when all eyes shall behold Him. This is normally the general view adopted especially by pre-tribulation rapture “theorists”. In my view however all of this is simply fancily suppositions by people who do not apply proper exegesis in interpreting scriptures.

The first glaring contradiction in the afore-mentioned scenario is that though it is claimed that Daniel’s 70th week marks 7 years of tribulation, in effect there is only 3.5 years of tribulation since the first 3.5 years are characterised by a period of peace. This point however is just an aside and is of little consequence to the business end of this study.

One of the important points to note is that in order for the “theorists” to arrive at their conclusions they make namely two false claims. First they claim that Israel rejected God and therefore salvation went to the Gentiles instead and therefore Israel will only be saved after having gone through the tribulation at the hands of anti-christ (the beast of Revelations 13). The second false claim is that the saints who are persecuted by the anti-christ are merely tribulation saints who are distinct and apart from the church which has already been raptured sometime before or at the start of the 7 year tribulation period. In support of this latter claim it is suggested that the Holy Spirit will no longer be on earth when the church is raptured and so these saints are saved perhaps through the preaching of the “Two Witnesses”. Of course none of this is supported in scripture and I will demonstrate why.

The first thing we should note is that salvation came to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles (Rom 1:16). The question here then is this: Did allIsrael reject the gift of salvation? The apostle Paul had this to say in Romans 10:

1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We know from these verses that there is no “special way” for the Jew (or Israel) to be saved but through the said Gospel that is available to the gentiles. So then howbeit that some argue that the Jew will only be saved at an appointed time during the so-called 7 year tribulation period? Are we to believe that no Jew (or Israelites) were saved though God purposed salvation to come to them first. God forbid. In verse 16 of the same passage of Rom 1 Paul went further to say this:

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

Although not all Israel believed the gospel the crucial point is that some did – a remnant of Israel did believe the gospel even though the majority might not have believed. First, John the Baptist preached to the Jews and baptized many unto repentance. Then Jesus came and preached the gospel to the Jews and sent His 12 disciples to the lost sheep of the Houses of Israel (the 12 tribes). The theorists seem to forget therefore that the early church largely comprised of Jews initially before the gospel was spread abroad to the gentile nations. It isn’t correct therefore to say that the Jews rejected salvation – whilst some did, not all did. God had purposed to save a remnant through the election of grace through the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Rom 11:5, Rom 9:27). The point needs to be emphasized here that God will not save this remnant of Israel at the end of the tribulation period after gentile Christians had been “raptured” but they were being saved since the going forth of the Gospel. Paul refers to these as the “first fruits” in verse 16 (Note that the 144,000 males of the 12 tribes of Israel are also referred to as the “first fruits” to God [Rev 14:4] – Christ being the first of the first fruits).

Having now established that God had purposed to save a remnant of Israel through the election of Grace and that this remnant are regarded as a type of “first fruits” unto God we can now address the issue of the “pre-tribulation rapture”.  The pre-tribulation rapture is defined as an event where Christ will secretly come in the clouds and gather all those that are his prior to the beast of Revelations 13 establishing his [second] kingdom. Do the scriptures support this view? If there were to be such an event as a pre-trib rapture then surely the remnant of Israel that are saved through grace would surely be amongst those that are raptured during the “first resurrection and catching away”. However, Revelations 12 presents a serious problem for this argument [if indeed the events of Rev 12 are in the future and not already fulfilled]. The relevant verse says this:

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Note here that the woman referenced is Israel and this can be gleaned if we read from verse 1. The poignant point here then is whether the Lord would indeed rapture the “second fruits” (the gentile Christians) and leave His “first fruits” who incidentally have also been saved according to the election of Grace (they have the testimony = Gospel of Jesus Christ) at the mercy of the anti-christ beast. If there were any rapture taking place the first fruits would most certainly have been among the first to be raptured. Similarly the 144,000 who are referred to as first fruits to God were sealed first before the great multitude were seen gathering before God’s throne at the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev 7). If the scripture says therefore that the remnant, which we understand to mean those Jews who accept Christ since the inception of the church, were left for the dragon to make war with them then you can rest assured that so too the rest of the church will be left at the mercy of the dragon. This remnant are not merely tribulation saints but they include those who have the election of grace since the gospel began.

Perhaps the Lord has a plan and a purpose for the remainder of the Jews [Israel] who have rejected Christ but the remnant will clearly face the dragon which has 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns as per Rev 12:17. That remnant isn’t separate and apart from the church but they are numbered amongst the church.  This scripture clearly demonstrates that there is no basis on which a pre-tribulation rapture can be established. I pray that people will wise up to the truths of these end days.

Comments

1. sawyer - May 24, 2011

Since all references to Israel by Jesus is really referring to the “overcomers” (those who prevail by the grace (efforts) of the Lord), and you say the Rev. 12 woman represents these, then how do they give birth to a male child … Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This child is thereby “taken” (caught up to God (The Father and/or the Kingdom of God) and to his (God’s throne or is this his (the man child’s throne, making this man a King).

I believe this woman is the Father whom is birthing in Heavenly terms, actually a type of promoting in rank from Son to becoming a Father themselves. Jesus never claimed to be a Father. He did not even claim to be the “our Father”. The Father was always considered to be a distinctly different person whom is the one that ushered him into his rank as Prince, that is by his sacrifice, the task he had of giving his physical life voluntarily as a part of the commandment he’d received from the FAther, thus did so for the Father, whom together they were doing for those the FAther gave to his son. Thus Jesus was becoming a Father.

This is further evidenced in Rev. 6 where the rider of the White horse who has conquered and goes a conquering has in his hand a “litter” with him. (Translating this as a Bow as in bow and arrow was a big mistake – research it yourself.

And then in Rev. 12 later on,

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

If the woman was Israel then they are gone at this point.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Who is “They who overcome” the accuser by the efforts and sacrifce of Jesus AND by their expression of their experience with Jesus (which as to be those that died for Jesus literally) as giving all included willingness to give one’s physical life in witness to Jesus?

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

I guess she is out of the wilderness at this point which I believe is a reference to a “spirit world”(section of the EArth’s 7 heavens that serves as a base for such undercover (hidden from view) operations for members of the Kingdom of God.

I believe the flood from the serpents mouth refers to dis/mis information with the aim of fighting against the “woman” which he intends as a ploy to engulf all the woman really represents (the Kingdom of God that she is representing and is Father of (12 stars in her crown – She is king of/Father to 12 solar systems that were once Earth garden support systems for the birth of souls into Theri kingdom membership). This flood of course tests all here seed as well, both the male child and the overcomers (1st fruits) which they overcome because her Son is incarnate then and giving his life again for them, showing them how to overcome the world as he’s done many times before, that is his task to earn his FAthership (which is by the blood of His Father when he was only a saint long, long ago), simply the way it works as the Kingdom of God do not reproduce as mammals. They instead offer opportunities to lower kingdom levels of life they orchestrated by giving part of the species a piece of themselves (a seed) that is actually a Soul pocket/container (wine skin) that can hold Their Holy Mind/spirit(wine).

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If the Woman was Israel they would be the 1st fruits so how can they have their own seed if they haven’t been born yet and even if they had been born by then (as birth isn’t determined by our saying we’re born as in the popular “I’m born again mindset”, it’s determined by the Lord’s standards for a viable birth. It’s actually quite real. It’s only mystical to us, but less so now than 2000 years ago).

If this Woman was Israel, then she would already be the remnant of her seed but you can see these are speaking of two distinct different people.

I say that these two , the Woman and male child are in fact also the Two Witnesses and are actually also the ONLY second coming that is to occur before the end of the current civilization (world). We are all in the tribulation NOW and it’s going to get hotter and we are only the remnant at best now but this would mean the 1st fruits were already harvested thus the Two Witnesses were already here and I believe there is a literal ton of evidence scripturually and practically that they were Ti and Do of the Heaven’s Gate group who laid down their lives for all to see.

Lots more info on this on my blog sawyerhg.wordpress.com and youtube.com/3spm and facebook.com/sawyer.heavensgate

2. Henry - May 26, 2011

Sawyer,

If you start out with a false premise then you will end up with the wrong conclusions. At the opening of your comment you claimed that all references to Israel by Jesus referred to “the overcomers” from this I can conclude that you subscribe to replacement theology. However if you read my post clearly you will have seen that there is no such basis in the Bible for replacement theology. Paul made it clear that God did not cast away His people Israel (the original 12 tribes) but that He had purposed to save a remnant by the election of Grace of which Paul himself being of the tribe of Benjamin was a beneficiary (Rom 11:5, 9:27).

Believe on the Lord Jesus and though shalt be saved!

3. lou - July 28, 2011

[Dear Discernment, I saw this item on the net just now.]

Christ’s return is NOT imminent !

by Bruce Rockwell

(Pretrib rapturists claim that Christ’s return is imminent, that is, capable of occurring at any moment. Theologian and pastor Norman MacPherson, in his excellent book “Triumph Through Tribulation,” offers proof that the Bible has never taught an any-moment return of Christ. Here are the points brought out and discussed at length by MacPherson:)

1. Great Commission fulfillment implies a long period of time.
2. Seed growth in Matthew 13 is a time-consuming process.
3. Paul expected death, not rapture, in II Timothy 4:6-8.
4. Jesus predicted Peter’s martyrdom in John 21:18-19.
5. Matthew 24 teaches that signs must come first.
6. Many passages speak of a large interval between Christ’s ascension and return: Jewish dispersion into “all nations” (Luke 21); “man travelling into a far country,” “after a long time the lord of those servants cometh” (Matthew 25).
7. Apostasy of last days takes time to develop.
8. Bridegroom tarried in parable of virgins.
9. Pastoral epistles teach Church’s continuing ministry, which involves time.
10. Paul says Christ’s coming is not imminent (II Thessalonians 2:1-3), for apostasy and Antichrist must come first.
11. View of seven phases of church history (seven churches of Revelation) involves big lapse of time and imminence difficulties for pre-tribs; could Christ have come before the last phase?
12. Exhortations to watch and be ready are tied to what pre-trib teachers regard as the second stage (which is necessarily non-imminent) in Matthew 24 and 25, I Corinthians 1:7, Colossians 3:4, I Thessalonians 3:13, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, I Peter 1:13 and 4:13, and I John 2:28.

(How can an “imminent” return of Christ have a greater practical effect on us than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit already has, or should have, on us? Acts 2:34-35 and Acts 3:21 are further proof that Christ’s return is NOT imminent! For more info on pretrib rapture beliefs and history, Google “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Pretrib Rapture – Hidden Facts,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”)

sawyer - July 28, 2011

I am not a seminary graduate so I don’t know all the terms and labels for various opinions and the last person in the New Testement I put much stock in is someone who stated himself that he never met Jesus and was seeking to have followers of Jesus murdered and then was blinded by a light, something Jesus would never ever do to someone to get them to believe as that is against the entire historic accounts of the Kingdom of God with humans and that light source, whatever it was audibly said they were Jesus when Jesus clearly stated not to believe anyone who came “in my name”. Now with that said, I don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater on Paul as there is evidence he had relationships with Peter and other of the Jesus appointed apostles, so certainly heard things Jesus told them, thus whenever we use Paul to justify anything about Jesus it behooves us to have some cross references to something Jesus was quoted to have said or one that seems to have been an active student of Jesus or Moses, since Jesus seemed to support Moses writings/actions.

,

4. Henry - July 29, 2011

@ Sawyer,

With all due respect this blog is a Christian blog intending to share and discuss matters of the faith/Gospel as laid out in the Bible. So please do not promote your “Heaven’s Gate doctrine” on here otherwise your posts will be deleted.

I am aware that there are many people who do not regard the Bible as the literal Word of God and that they instead think it is a series of stories veiled in allegory having a more mystical significance. I do not subscribe to such doctrine as I believe such a view is false.

The Heavens Gate group as far as I am aware is a cult which encourages mass suicide – in the mistaken belief that by taking ones own life one can attain to a higher state of being. In the face of the Gospel this is a lie from the pit of hell. Do not let the devil deceive you. Believe on the Lord Jesus, that He is the Son of God, who died and rose again so that through Him we might inherit eternal life. This indeed is a mystery but nothing to do with gnosticism or man’s risen self through man’s own will. God is a living God and it is His will that we should seek to attain to.

5. Henry - July 29, 2011

Hi Lou,

The question of whether Christ’s return is “imminent” or not is an interesting one. As you obviously pointed out, Christ cannot return before those prophesies prior to His return have been fulfilled. I think the emphasis in scripture though is that we should watch and pray for we not the day nor the hour when Christ will put in His appearance. We cannot be so complacent as to think that the time is “so far off into the tuture” that we forget to watch and be vigilante for our soul’s sake.

Hopeful_watcher - August 24, 2011

My attitude is that satan is always hard at work and Jesus’s second coming is greatly dependent on the how far along the Luciferian agenda is to breaking loose and corrupting God’s children, therefore Christs return has ALWAYS been imminent even as He ascended into heaven. I guess with that attitude we shall never be caught unaware.

Hopeful_watcher - August 25, 2011

Thank you speaking the hard truths about the pretrib rapture myth. It won’t win you any love for the delusion runs deep, but it is a dangerous false teaching that sets up those without the spirit of truth to accept a false new age rapture.

6. Henry - August 25, 2011

Hopeful_watcher,
I spent a considerable lenght of time on this subject matter because I think it is so simple to glean that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. But as you have said the delusion runs deep and indeed it is very dangerous. Jesus gave instructions to write to the seven churches so that they may be encouraged and be prepared in the time of trouble. A pre-trib doctrine however may overthrow the faith of some in the day of trouble if they expected to be rapture out of it.

Hopeful_watcher - August 25, 2011

Whats worse is since satan mimics all that is good and holy, he may actually create a false rapture event which will pull lukewarm christians right into the delusion. Here is an interesting read you might find enjoy, which covers exactly that.

http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/Pretrib8.htm

Hopeful_watcher - August 25, 2011

Hope I don’t discredit myself in your eyes by saying this, but I actually believe there is something to this UFO phenomena, either as an actual ET intelligence or one created as looking like one. If so, this could be maneuvered quite easily to bolster a rapture-like event if they surrounded it with new age spirituality, God forbid they tie it to a false christ. Just ask Sawyer from above comments. They are ready now and have been.

7. Henry - August 26, 2011

Hopeful_watcher,
You are not discrediting yourself. Indeed there is something to the UFO phenomena. However rather than looking at it from the point of view of the TV misinformation, I think it may be related more to fallen beings (demonic activity). Remember that Satan was caste out of heaven and he carried many other angels with him? If you look for example at Revelations and think about some of the images that John saw such as the beasts before Gods throne we can get a sense that not all heavenly creatures are of humanoid form though they speak with lips of men. I want you to also take a look at Ezekiel 1. Here the Prophet saw a vision of the Lord but also some heavenly creatures that were rather strange in appearance to say the least. But what interested me here was the wheels of beryl (or Chrysolite) that were by the living creatures. Ezekiel also described what he saw as the spirit of the creatures being in the wheels. Some of these descriptions to me does appear like flying machines and resonate with “flying saucers” that many claimed to have seen. For example the NIV says that the rims of the wheels were “full of eyes” which could be a reference to lights around the wheel. So if we relate this back to the fallen ones we could build up a picture that this UFO phenomena is likely to be related to those beings.

8. Hopeful_watcher - August 26, 2011

Excellent points. I concur that their manifestation are demonic in nature. Thank you for the other scriptural references. Sounds like you seek the truth no matter where it leads you.

9. Don - September 18, 2011

[Thanks, Henry. Excellent! Caught the following on the web.]

PRETRIB RAPTURE SCHOLAR WANNABES!

by Dave MacPherson

To become a PH.D (Pretrib History Distorter) or a D.D. (Doctrinal Deviant), do the following:

(1) MISSPELL THE LAST NAMES OF MANUEL LACUNZA, MARGARET MACDONALD, C. I. SCOFIELD, HAL LINDSEY, GRANT JEFFREY, TIM LAHAYE ETC.

(2) STATE THAT MARGARET MACDONALD WAS A PLYMOUTH BRETHREN MEMBER, OR THAT JOHN DARBY WAS HER PASTOR.
Wrong and wrong.

(3) OR GUESS THAT MARGARET WAS AN IRVINGITE, OR THAT EDWARD IRVING WAS HER PASTOR.
Wrong and wrong again.

(4) ASSUME THAT MARGARET MACDONALD ORIGINATED “DISPENSATIONALISM.”
This “straw man” assumption by Jack Kinsella (“Is Dispensationalism a Recent Doctrine?,” 8/11/11) is totally missing from all genuine scholarship, and Jack can’t find her even mentioning that long word!

(5) CLAIM THAT MARGARET’S PRIVATELY CIRCULATED 1830 RAPTURE “REVELATION” TAUGHT ONLY THE POSTTRIB VIEW.
Longtime No. 1 pretrib rapture leader John Walvoord’s “Rapture Question” proves (p. 105f) that Margaret’s view (that only PART of the Church gets raptured) has long been a widely held form of the PREtrib view – and Charles Ryrie’s 1981 “rapture” book and other pretrib works have purposely ignored Walvoord!
Margaret’s 1830 “revelation” saw “the one taken [before Antichrist's revealing] and the other left.” The PART of the Church left on earth after the rapture was viewed by her collectively as “the Church” – the same wording used in the same way by later partial rapturists! (Google “X-Raying Margaret” and “Edward Irving is Unnerving.”)

(6) REPEAT THE FALSEHOOD THAT JOHN DARBY WAS DISPENSATIONALISM’S “FATHER.”
Darby wasn’t original on any crucial aspect of that system including the “church/Israel dichotomy,” the church being absent from a future “Jewish” tribulation, the “Jewish” book of Matthew, the “literal method,” the “Gentile parenthesis,” the “ruin of the church,” and especially the “pretribulation rapture.” Margaret was the first to “discover” pretrib in the Bible and she shared her novel interpretation only privately with others (spring of 1830). Rev. Edward Irving and his followers, who credited Margaret, were the first to publicly teach it (September of 1830) in the Irvingite journal “The Morning Watch.” Darby didn’t clearly express pretrib until 1839 – and when he did he plagiarized the exact same Rev. 12 “man child caught up” argument Irving had publicly used eight years earlier!

(7) TRY NOT TO REPRODUCE MARGARET’S 117-LINE PRETRIB RAPTURE “REVELATION.”
But if you do, copy it like Thomas Ice who in 1989 copied it so quickly he somehow omitted a total of 49 words from different sentences – the same 49 words that Tim LaHaye left behind in his 1992 book “No Fear of the Storm”! LaHaye (pp. 168, 207) also came up with two different titles for Lacunza’s famous old book – neither one correct! (Google “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” (which reveals that Ice’s “Ph.D” was issued by a school that was fined by the state of Texas for illegally issuing degrees!), “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice,” and “LaHaye’s Temperament.”

(8) DON’T LET YOURSELF QUOTE ACTS 2:34-35, ACTS 3:21, OR I THESS. 1:7-8.
Why? They prove that Christ can’t leave heaven ahead of time for a pretrib rapture!

(9) READ PRETRIB INTO AS MANY PRE-1830 WRITERS AS POSSIBLE.
Such writers used only double meaning or unclear phrases like “escape,” “taken away,” “before the general conflagration,” “before Armageddon” etc. – but many of your readers will believe you if you assert that the ancient writers were really teaching pretrib!
Even Walvoord couldn’t find ANYONE before the time of Darby (whom Walvoord labeled as an “early pretribulationist”!) who taught pretrib, so Walvoord had to settle for only what seemed to be “imminence” (in three of the earliest church documents) which seemingly could fit into the pretrib scheme – and Walvoord even censored portions of the ancient statements which, when quoted completely, revealed the posttrib view! Is it possible that John Bray, Thomas Ice, Grant Jeffrey and some others can locate – or manufacture – evidence of pretrib before 1830 that even Walvoord couldn’t find?! (To see exposures of those claiming to find pretrib before 1830, Google my internet article entitled “Deceiving and Being Deceived.”)

(10) IGNORE ARTICLES ON GOOGLE AND YAHOO LIKE “PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS,” “PRETRIB RAPTURE DIEHARDS,” AND “PRETRIB RAPTURE SECRECY.”
If you ignore this advice, at least take some tranquilizers first!

(11) PLAGIARIZING IS EASIER THAN RESEARCHING. BUT TRY TO DISGUISE YOUR THIEVERY!
If you think that stealing isn’t a way of life for pretrib promoters (from Darby to LaHaye), you’ve never Googled “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” or “Thieves’ Marketing.”

(12) IF ALL ELSE FAILS, CLAIM THAT REV. 3:10 PROVES PRETRIB.
Avoid Googling “Famous Rapture Watchers” which reveals how the greatest New Testament Greek scholars of all time interpreted it.

Finally, I invite you to obtain my 300-page, highly endorsed online book “The Rapture Plot.” What you’ve read so far in this paper is less than one percent of the mountains of documentation on pretrib rapture history in this book of mine. Some of my web articles, such as the ones listed above, are on various blogs (owned by my good friend Joe Ortiz) including “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation.” Joe is the author of two excellent books that biblically refute the Rapture to Heaven mythology, namely, “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation.’ “

10. Jerry kelso - February 23, 2012

Henry, Most of the time the real beef with pre-tribbers is that they are thought of being selfish about missing tribulation and being unfair to the jewish nation. They are also thought to be deceptive because of making people become complacent. It is true that many have had the lazy attitude, God help them. The Bible says we are to occupy until he comes and Paul said I Die Daily because he could be killed everyday by the Judaizers. People are killed for the cause of Christ everyday somewhere in the world. So it doesn’t matter when the rapture occurs, we are to live our lives to the fullest for the Lord.
The position of the rapture has to be understood in the light of the scripture. The Kingdom of Heaven reign was nothing new to Israel. Jesus presented it to them and they rejected it.( Matthew 4:17; Matthew 23:37-39). It was prophesied to them throughout the law and the prophets until John, (Matthew 11:13). This was because the reality of the Messiah had come, John being the last of the old testament prophets and the forerunner of Jesus.
In short, just like the jews never understood the body of Christ as the jew and gentile in one and on the same ground as Paul said in Ephesians 3:4-6 about the mystery of Christ, the resurrection with the dead and the living was a mystery, (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52). This clearly shows the dead being raised and the living being changed. This goes in line with 2 Thessalonians 4:16,17.
If you notice the only ones in Revelation 20 in the first resurrection would be the dead not the living. This is in perfect harmony with Hebrews 6:2 which was spoken to jews about the old testament doctrine, resurrection of the dead, no living.
The 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal and are protected through the trumpet judgements; (Revelation 9:4) and are raptured in the middle of the tribulation as the manchild. In Revelation 14, they are in Heaven before the throne. They cannot be the remnant for they are in Heaven and the remnant are left on the earth. I’ve already answered why they are the manchilld in your other post.
The last company mentioned to be killed of the blessed dead Revelation 14 are the ones who don’t take the mark of the beast and they are in Heaven. Revelation 14, singing the song of Moses and the Lamb. (Christian Jews). They are in Revelation 20 as being in the 1st resurrection and no living was mentioned because these were all killed by the Antichrist.
God has a proper perspective for everything and as you can see there is nothing far fetched about a pre-trib rapture in any sense. In 2nd Thessalonians 2 the restrainer will step aside. This restainer is 1. The Holy Spirit. Though he abides forever he will allow the antichrist to do his work. 2. The Church. They will have fulfilled their mission and they are in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation ( Revelation 11:18) time of the saints reward given to them. 3. Michael the protector of Israel will step aside. Daniel 12:1 shows Michael stands up for Israel. But Zechariah 13 shows that two thirds of Israel will be cut off and a third will come through the fire. This is why Michaell will step aside which is Israel’s purging; (Daniel 9:24-27). Also, the Spirit will bring a strong delusion on people who have been left behind. Those people in Paul’s day in Thessalonians were told the Day of the Lord was at hand meaning they had missed the rapture and Paul let them know he said no such thing in word or by letter. Before that would happen there had to be the apostasy and the man of sin must be revealed. Neither one of these had happened.
In conclusion, there is no real signs of the church in the tribulation but there is for the jewish nation who rejected Christ, the suffering Messiah; (Isaiah 53). When Christ was living he preached the acceptable year of the Lord, but, not the day of vengeance; (Luke 4:19). The day of vengeance is the day of the Lord. 2 Thessalonians 2 talks about Christ destroying the enemy with the brightness of his coming.
Israel is promised to be the head of the nations on earth; Isaiah 2:4. The church was never promiised this. We will however have rulership positions on earth and in the universe. We are being trained right now for Paul said in Timothy if ye suffer ye shall reign. I will stop here but, I believe that you can see there is no reason to be so divisive when things are put in the proper perspective of the word. God bless! Jerry Kelso, a truth seeker

sawyer - February 24, 2012

You have some good points but if henry lets this comment though I’d like to run by you some of the prophesies I believe Ti and Do fulfilled. No one has been able to dispute these prophecies. Henry has tried more than most but I’ve pointed out where he is mistaken as the angels with the trumphets are those that are announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God, while the 7 angels with vials are engaging the bulk of the tribulation period that we have yet to experience full force but will coincide with the 4th greenish horse of the apocolpyse as bush was red and obama black.

11. Henry - February 24, 2012

Jerry Kelso,

I have already addressed the issue of the man child in my first response to you. The 144k must be “raptured” at the 6th seal before God’s wrath is poured out during the 7th seal. The tribulation is therefore prior to the 6th seal and should not be confused with God’s wrath during the 7th seal. This is the point that is often overlooked when interpreting Revelations. The tribulation and the wrath are different if you go back to Matt 24. During the 6th seal the heavens are opened after the sun is turned to darkness and the moon into blood. In Matt 24 therefore we learn that it is after the tribulation that the sun turns to darkness and the moon to blood, then the sign of the Son of Man appears in the heavens. The events therefore following the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens relates to God’s wrath and not to the tribulation which takes place before. Satan’s time to persecute the saints (including the Remnant of Rev 12) would therefore have to occur before the 6th seal thus making it impossible for the male child to be the 144k. Matt 24:29-31 is a direct reflection of the events of the 6th seal in Rev 6 and Rev 7. If you try to build doctrine based on some scriptures whilst ignoring others you will end up with a faulty interpretation.

The first resurrection included those who were killed by the beast (Rev 20:4-6). So if these were raptured during the “first resurrection and catching away” mid trib, then this must have occured prior to or leading up to the 6th seal but not after. Conflating Matt 24 with Rev 6 and Rev 7 Jesus does not come until after the 6th seal is opened so the rapture of these who where behead by the beast cannot be mid trib since Jesus comes after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29-31).

Once again I will say that we need to be careful in our interpretations but laying scripture upon scripture otherwise we will end up in a fualty position. We need to realise that the tribulation (reign of the antichrist) occurs before the wrath of God which commences at the 7th seal. Failing this we will get into deep water when interpreting these matters.

Jerry kelso - February 25, 2012

Sawyer, I understand your position, it is sorta of like those who believe in chiasms. The first problem is that the trumpets are not announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God. Revelation is talking about the millennial kingdom which is the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven on earth is what the Jews were promised on earth as head of the nations. (Isaiah 2:2-4). The Kingdom of God is the universal kingdom as a whole of which the Kingdom of Heaven is just the earthly sphere. If you read Daniel 7:27 it mentions the Kingdom under the heavens which is this earthly sphere. The translation is Baselia which means that its rule is the Kingdom from the Heavens because it gets it’s authority from God above who is the head of the Kingdom of God, universal. After the 1000 year reign the son will give the Kingdom back to God the father so he will be God all in all which will be the Kingdom of God universal for the universe will be in harmony once again.
The 7 angels are not the bulk of the tribulation, but, the very last part of the tribulation. If you read Revelation 15 you know the last of the tribulation saints are in heaven and the 16th chapter are the 7 vials which is the wrath of God that is poured out on the participants of the beast kingdom only. It also paves the way for the Kings of the east to join the rest of the nations that will meet at the Battle of Armageddon.
The apocalypse as Bush and Obama cannot be collaborated by scripture. God bless! Jerry Kelso

Jerry kelso - February 25, 2012

Henry, I understand your position but, I have to disagree. There are some that put Revelation 6 as a panoramic view of the tribulation. I understand the similarities of the rocks falling and the earthquake and such.
The potential problem is that the seals are opened consecutively as happening in basic succession. Between the 6th and 7th seal, 6th and 7th trumpet are parentheticals. The 1st parenthetical are the 144,000 and the great multitude. These mark those companies going to heaven in the tribulation. The 144,000 are preserved through the trumpet judgements; Revelation 9:4; and make it to Heaven in Revelation 14. The great multitude will be the souls under the altar and the the rest of their brethren who are killed in the last half of the tribulation known as the blessed dead and who arrive in heaven under the sea of glass who will be in the 1st Resurrection for they have not taken the mark. (Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 14:13; Revelation 15:2-3; Revelation 20:4-6.) This resurrection is only the righteous dead. The wicked dead are not until a 1000 years later. Revelation 20:5.
Revelation 6:17 is the wrath of the lamb which is the trumpet judgements and the Wrath of God is found in Revelation 16 which are the 7 vials poured out upon the beast kingdom. The lamb is not seen on the earth during the tribulation, but he will come as the Faithful and True, and in righteousness judging and making war and will be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 19:11, and verse 16.
The silence of Heaven will be a Yom Kippur service and the trumpet angels will prepare the judgements bathed in the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 12 is the mid point of the tribulation for Satan is turning his power and authority over to the Antichrist. Revelation 13:2. It is in Revelation 13 that he wears out the saints in the tribulation not the church; Revelation 13:4,7. The church will be in Heaven getting their rewards in Revelation 11:18 which is the middle of the tribulation.
IIf you will notice in Revelation 12 the dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns and the 7 heads are crowned. This represents the nations that oppressed Israel; 6 in the past who are: Egypt Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome and 1 in the tribulation known as the Revised Roman Empire as can be seen in Israel’s history and the book of Daniel. In Revelation 13, the 10 horns are crowned. This is when the Antichrist starts taking over because in Daniel he has to come up among the 10 horns and then the 10 horns who hate the whore in Revelation 17 will give their power to the Antichrist.
As far as the rapture it fits more into the first of the tribulation. The Antichrist comes on the scene the beginning of the tribulation and has his peace treaty for the first 3 and one half years. Daniel 9:27, Revelation 6-12. His reign will be the last 3 and one half years from the time of the abomination of desolation and will culminate at the Battle of Armageddon. Revelation 12-16.
God Bless! Jerry Kelso

Jerry kelso - February 26, 2012

Bruce, The things you have stated have to do with the Second Advent.
The Great Commission has already been a good while. But, if you are trying to tie it into seed growth from Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 with the gospel of the kingdom being preached you misunderstand what is being said. Society will grow worse and worse and though there will be a revival of people getting saved during the tribulation, the gospel of the kingdom is not all what one may think. Kingdom people use this scripture to prove that they will bring in the millennial kingdom by their preaching the gospel.
1. The church cannot build the kingdom for it is only Christ who brings in the kingdom.
2. The kingdom message is more about Christ coming back to take over the kingdoms of this world which he will do. Revelation 11:15
3. Matthew 13 is about the tares and the wheat and the different soils of which will be used. Only 1 was really successful. The main point is that these parables were about Israel’s rejection the 1st time and is about the millennial kingdom at the end when the tares and wheats will be separated.
Paul expected death because of his situation in prison. He was the one in Titus Looking for the Blessed Hope which is the rapture. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the resurrection in the twinkling of an eye with the dead and those alive was a mystery. The kingdom and the resurrection of the dead in the old testament was nothing new to the jews. Hebrews 6:2 and Revelation 20:4:7.
Jesus did predict Peter’s death and rightly so and he told Peter about the kingdom coming to fruition wasn’t for him to know, that was God the Father’s business. One has to understand gradual revelation and the way that it unfolded. Peter did not understand when the gentiles got saved what actually happened. Peter was still in the old testament days of proselyting the gentiles into judaism. On the day of Pentecost Peter was still looking the kingdom because of the signs that were happening with the outpour of the Holy Spirit. Also, the new covenant was promised to the Jews in Jeremiah 31 so, that is another reason they didn’t understand the role about the Gentiles getting saved and being given the Holy Spirit the way it unfolded which was incidentally, 8 to 10 years later. Cornelius and his family was the first gentiles to officially start the body of Christ with Jew and Gentile in one body alike.
Matthew 25 is basically speaking of the time of the end concerning the judgement of the nations which will be right after the 2nd advent.
Pastoral epistles teach continued ministry to the appointed time of the Blessed Hope in Titus and the rapture of the living and the dead in the sky and then going to heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17.
Apostasy and the Antichrist being revealed in 2 Thessalonians 2 is sometime in the first half of the tribulation to the middle when he desolates the temple in Jerusalem. It will be a short time.
The 7 church phase cannot be reconciled strictly by scripture even though it is interesting with the similarities of history. It does appear that the Laodicean period is prevalent today and there is to be an apostasy. Compromise breeds apostasy. If there would have been anything in the past long time age to happen would have been the climate of the kings of the earth. Another words, all the nations of the world that are uniting in the new world order, etc. In 70 A.D. the preterists believe the tribulation happened but, it was impossible because the whole earth was not together in order to fulfill the prophecies concerning the Antichrist and the whole earth’s agenda. It was only the then world which was under the Roman control.
Exhortations are given to watch and be ready for the rapture and the 2nd advent both. Matthew 24, 25 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 and 5:1-8. etc.
There are really no specific prophecies that I know that have to happen for the church to be raptured at this moment.
Kissinger said, Obama was the one to lead the U.S. into the new world order and he has said that he will do what Carter and Bush and the rest couldn’t do and that is sign a peace treaty which implied the peace treaty of significance That sounds like the Antichrist according to Daniel 9:27.
If we have to go through the tribulation we are to be willing to die for Christ the same as today and in Paul’s day. We are to occupy until he comes whether we suffer tribulation of that magnitude or not. So if people are getting slack they are using the pre-trib position as a crutch for we are never to be slack for Christ. For whoever goes through the tribulation will have to be strong in faith and hopefully they won’t be the ones that Christ talks about in 2 Thessalonians 2 when he send a strong delusion and they end up being deceived by Satan and don’t make it to heaven. God bless! Jerry Kelso

12. Henry - February 27, 2012

Jerry Kelso,

What exactly do you not agree with?

Lets put aside the question of whether or not the 7 seals occur consecutively for now and lets look on a point by point basis at what the scriptures say. In order to do this we need to establish the timing of events correctly by laying scripture upon scripture.

We know that the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. (Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20; Isa 13:10)

The prophet Joel saw the great day of the Lord and gave the sign – this was reiterated in Acts. Isaiah also prophesied of a similar sign – Jesus spoke of it in Matt 24 and John saw it in Rev 6. Are you telling me therefore that these occurrences of the sun being turned to darkness and the moon to blood are separate occurrences in time? Because that is what you imply by disagreeing. So let’s compare Rev 6 with Matt 24

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matt 24) Notice that verse 29 is vertically identical to Isa 13:10,13.

Now compare Rev 6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The first question we need to resolve is whether Matt 24:29 occurs at the same time as Rev 6:12 (as well as Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20 and Isa 13:10) What about Isa 34:4? Is this event of the heavens being rolled up as a scroll occurring at a different time period to Rev 6:14? In addition how many times will the heavens depart in like fashion to reveal Jesus Christ? Once, twice or three times?

My position is that the great and terrible day of the law occurs once when the sun is turn to darkness and the moon to blood following which the heavens depart to reveal the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven. This therefore means that Rev 6 and Matt 24 must necessarily speak of the same events which occur at the time of the coming of Christ.

13. Jerry kelso - February 28, 2012

Henry, At first glance it would seem to be so as you have said it and I used to think the same thing because of the similarities. If you were mere similarities we could use the same analogy in Revelation 11 to say that the 2 witnesses are automatically Moses and Elijah because they performed those same miracles. Of course, we know Elijah will seemingly be one because of Malachi 4:5-6. So, Moses seems credible as the other, except, for the fact that Moses actually died which, would seem to disqualify him. Deuteronomy 30:16,27,29; 34:5-6.
There are 4 great earthquakes Revelation 6:12; 8:5; 11:19; 11:13; 16:19; Zechariah 14:4-8.
5 times the sun is darkened Revelation 6:12; 8:12; 9:2; 16:10.
5 times the moon will become affected corresponding with the darkening of the sun
5 times the stars will be affected corresponding with the sun being darkened. 2 of them are spoken as falling to the earth which you gave the scriptures as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 6:13. These are said to be suns to other planets and not fixed stars.
Now the question is that it seems direct because of the classes of men and the rocks falling on them and seeing him that sitteth on the throne that is correlated with Isaiah 2:10-21.
Matthew 24 is definitely right after the tribulation days; so why shouldn’t Revelation 6 being that it seems to have the same identical occurrences happening?.
You say that they are both the same because of the similarities but, you must go deeper to prove if Revelation 6 is the end of the tribulation. This is where hermeneutics really comes into play as well as finding the time factor.
There are parentheticals after the 6th and 7th seal, the 6th and 7th trumpet, and after the 6th vial and after the 7vial.
1. The 2 companies of the redeemed: The 144,000 jews who are raptured to heaven in Rev. 14 which is middle of the tribulation. The great multitude are the tribulation saints who die and go to heaven. The parentheticals definitely do not match up with the 6th seal for the 144,000 are raptured before the end and the tribulation saints are killed and seen in heaven under the sea of glass right before the 7 vials in Rev. 15. So the silence in heaven for a half hour is a part of a Yom Kippur Service and the prayer of the saints would go along with this in verse 3. They have prepared themselves to sound in order the trumpet judgement starting with the 1st trumpet. This is why the silence in heaven is not the coming of the Lord as in Matthew 24, Isaiah 2. or Revelation 16 or 19. Those signs will be there at the end of the tribulation and scripture bears it out but, as you can see it is not conclusive in Rev. 6 for the reasons stated.
Even though the parentheticals work in and around or after the certain seals and trumpet judgements, and vials, not all of them are exactly fulfilled within those near time factors. For example, Revelation 17 is fulfilled basically, in the middle of the tribulation because the ten horns gets the Antichrist power to get rid of the whore (religious system) and then give there power to the Antichrist. This is conjunction with Rev. 13. In Revelation 18 is the destruction of literal Babylon which ends in the 7th vial in Revelation 16:19.
For those who believe that the 7th trumpet Christ comes back in verse 15, I would beg to differ. There are voices in heaven saying the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign for ever and ever. This is not fulfilled at this time because the events of Rev. 11-5-13-18 have to be fulfilled. So verse 15 is an announcement and the rewards of the saints are in heaven in the middle of the tribulation.
Some people put the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial together side by side to show that Christ comes back in the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and the 7th vial at the same time. With the right hermeneutics this can be achieved but, if we look closer we may see something else.
I already explained between the 6th and 7th seal and why that could not be Christ return. If you go to the 6th and 7th trumpets you have the 200,000,000 demon horsemen out of the pit and they are said by some to be the armies out of the kings of the east in Revelation 16:12-14. However though, they are possessed by the devil they are actual men and do not come out of the pit. The 3 unclean spirits are there to work miracles of persuasion and come from the mouth of the dragon, Antichrist; who is the beast and the false prophet.
Now the Angel with the little book is fulfilled basically in the middle of the tribulation. The 2 witnesses some believe are fulfilled in the 1st half of the tribulation meaning they die in the middle of the tribulation since they have to protect those rebuilding the temple to get ready for sacrifices. Others believe that there ministry is the 2nd half because Elijah must come before the great and dreadful day denoting Jacob’s trouble and the remnant will need protection then because the Antichrist has a 7 year peace treaty which will last the 1st 3 and one half years of the tribulation.
Either way it doesn’t really matter because before going into the 7th angel sounding v14, says: The second woe is past; and behold the 3rd woe cometh quickly. The 3rd woe are the events of 11;15-13:18. Then it goes into the parentheticals of the 144,00 in heaven, the 1st-3rd angels announcements of the coming beast kingdom and doom and the blessed dead who die from henceforth. Then it goes into the picture of the harvest and vintage battle of Armageddon scene. The last thing before the 7 vials are the tribulation saints in heaven and the preparation of the angels with the 7 vials. Christ is not coming back here. The 6th vial leads into the 7th vial at the battle of the Armageddon.
So the point is that you cannot truthfully match up the 6th and 7th seal or the 6th and 7th trumpet up with the 6th and 7th vial when you put them side by side.
Some have made the argument that the silence in Heaven is one half hour of mercy and one half hour of judgement meaning the 1st half of the tribulation (mercy), the 2nd half of the tribulation ( judgement known as Jacob’s trouble). The truth is that the seals, trumpets, and vials happen one after the other consecutively and the parentheticals and other events happen in and around them and then sometimes later. Also, the wrath of the lamb are the trumpet judgements not the day of the Lord. So with this and the fact that the prayers of the saints follow the seal with the silence in a Yom Kippur service at this time and the wrath of God being upon the beast kingdom being separate from the wrath of the lamb Revelation stands to be in the 1st half of the tribulation. God Bless Jerry Kelso

Jerry kelso - February 28, 2012

Hopeful Watcher, I am glad you are watching for the Lord to come again. Titus said, to be watching for that Blessed Hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ.
If you read my posts you will see that the pre-trib does not teach to be lax, so it is not a dangerous teaching. The bible says to occupy until he comes and Paul said, I die daily because he put his life on the line for the cause of Christ everyday and we are to do the same and there are many people who do this everyday around the world. People may teach you to be lax that believe this position but, the bible doesn’t.
The bible says the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church but, Israel has been trodden down for a very long time, and will not come to God as a Nation until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled which, will be the Second Coming. This is so they can take their rightful place at the head of the nations of the earth in which they were promised in their covenants. Isaiah 2:2-4. There will be gentiles saved in the tribulation and will be overcome by the Antichrist. Revelation 13:7.
All the blessed dead are the ones who do not take the mark of the beast. Revelation 14:13. Revelation 15:2-3 tribulation saints who do not take the mark of the beast are in Heaven. This is right before the 7 vials which is the wrath of God on the Beast worshippers and will lead up to the battle of Armageddon. In Revelation 20 these same ones are in the 1st resurrection but, this is only the resurrection of the dead which harmonizes with Hebrews 6:2 which was the old testament Resurrection of the Dead. This has no living saints being caught up with them as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. So there is no post-trib rapture. Now whether you believe it or not or understand it, surely you would have to agree that there is no thwarting a lazy attitude according to the word and should not be blamed as a position that is not scriptural. God bless! Jerry Kelso

Stef - February 28, 2012

Why can’t the sun turning to darkness be a full solar eclipse and the moon being one of those rare red moons that by the way just happened and was a story on yahoo news, visible in full best over the entire western United States, the new babylon.

However I don’t think we’ve reached the 4th seal yet the green horse (as there really is nothing pale in the greek word used there, though it may be a light green or pale green or greenish.

14. Stef - February 28, 2012

Did you all ever consider that the Jesus record and the revelations record in terms of prophecy can have a number of ways of depicting the same time period Rev. 6 seems to depict most of that entire return, while so does rev 11 and rev 12. Then there is rev 14 and by the way how do you all explain the two harvests. Is that jesus coming back twice?

Jerry kelso - February 29, 2012

Stef, There are different places in the scriptures that talk about the same time and place about a particular subject. So your suggestion could be a possibility but, it doesn’t better out with scripture and proper hermeneutics, etc.
Revelation 6-19 is all about the tribulation. Revelation 6,11,12,and 14 all have things in it that are depicting the same time period which is the 7 years from the time of the seals to the end of the 7 vials.
Revelation 6 has signs similar to the end of the tribulation. Revelation 11 has the announcement of the end of the tribulation. Revelation 12 is all about the middle of the tribulation where Satan gives his power over to the Antichrist. And Revelation 14 has about the top half of the 2nd part of the tribulation, which are the 3 angels talking about the pending doom of Babylon and the blessed dead who are those who die by the hand of the Antichrist for not taking the mark. The two harvests is a picture of the battle of Armageddon; the 1st one symbolic of taking place and the second one symbolic of what will actually take place in greater detail, but, it is not actually being fulfilled at that very moment.
If you read my post closely you will understand why that the view of all the passages being the exact time frame doesn’t hold true when you use proper exegesis. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

15. Henry - February 29, 2012

Jerry Kelso,

It seems you have clearly missed the point of my reply to you. I asked you to lets take this point by point yet you have instead reverted to verbatim in discussing a whole range of issues and possibilities some of which includes suppositions on your part (Yom Kipur service for instance). I am not however interested in suppositions but what scripture actually says.

The central question that I have put to you therefore you have not answered. I have asked you how many times will the heavens be rolled away (like a scroll) to reveal Jesus Christ immediately following the sign of the sun turning to darkness and the moon into blood but this point has been ignored in your rather wordy reply.

You said, and I quote

So the point is that you cannot truthfully match up the 6th and 7th seal or the 6th and 7th trumpet up with the 6th and 7th vial when you put them side by side.

I never said any such thing either in my post or in my responses to comments. I simply do not know where you got that idea from. Ignore the verbatim and answer the simple question of how many times will the heavens be rolled away or depart as a scroll to reveal the Son of Man in the heavens following the sign of the sun turning into darkness and the moon into blood. Notice that the focus here is not on how many times will the sun and moon be darkened but rather on the heavens being rolled away to reveal Jesus and God’s throne. When you can answer that question we can then proceed to address the other points you have raised. Otherwise the arguments simply get muddle up in the verbatim.

16. Jerry kelso - March 1, 2012

Henry, I am sorry you thought I was giving a supposition because I didn’t give a scripture. I also, apologize if I misunderstood about your point of the heavens departing as a scroll. And I apologize for being general in spots for I wasn’t trying to accuse you of something you didn’t say. Now with that aside, let me answer your question step by step. Revelation 6 is the only place that uses the term scroll or at least in the scriptures of Isaiah 2, Matthew 24: 29-31; Acts 2:17-19-20; Revelation 19:11.
Isaiah says he shakes terribly the earth in that day. Matthew says the power of heavens shall be shaken which happen immediately after the tribulation of those days. Acts says, he will shew wonders in heaven and signs on the earth before the great and notable day of the Lord. Revelation 6 says, the heaven departed as a scroll. Revelation 19 says, And I saw heaven open.
Revelation 6 and Revelation 19 are the only two that show a clear cut of seeing God. In Revelation 6 it says, the one who sits on the throne and Revelation 19 says and behold a white horse and the one who sat upon him called Faithful and True and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. This was the point I was making that Christ is coming back on a white horse as a warrior. The lamb and the one who sits on the throne is in heaven during the tribulation and the lamb’s wrath is the trumpet judgements. The wrath of God is different and it is what leads into the battle of Armageddon. Read Revelation 16:1.
The wrath of the lamb is fixing to happen through the trumpet judgements which is upon nature and upon men as well but, the 144,000 are protected through these judgements. Revelation 9:4. They are in heaven around God’s throne in Chapter 14 which is the middle of the tribulation.
The wrath of God has to do with judgement on the beast kingdom and bringing the armies of all the earth to the battle of Armageddon to fight against the Lord and his armies.
So the conclusion is that Revelation 6 is the heavens depart as a scroll and the men on earth see the one who sits on his throne which is most likely God the Father and this happens at the 1st half of the tribulation.
Revelation 19:11 is where Heaven’s open and the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is on a white horse with his armies ready to destroy the enemy on the Day of the Lord with the brightness of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. God bless!.

17. Henry - March 1, 2012

Jerry Kelso,
I think we are going round and around in circles here and the central point keep getting missed. I have written a number of articles on these issues stating what I believe to be the truth of God’s word and if you do not agree I can’t force you. There are question marks over some of the things you claim which for all intents and purposes cannot be supported by scripture which is why I said lets take this point by point but instead you keep repeating the same stuff you have already put forward, in your attempts to clarify.

So lets look at this from another angle. You talk about first half of the tribulation and mid tribulation yet for me there is no such renderings in scripture. Can you tell me how you determined the time periods you designated as the “first half of the tribulation” and the “middle of the tribulation”? No doubt you will tell me about Daniel 9 v 27 and that this is based on Daniel’s 70 week, and some anti-christ signing a peace covenant with Israel. But none of this fits the scriptures at all.

You need to go back and study this carefully and to help you I have already written some articles on Daniel’s 70eth week amongst other things. Many mistakenly put Dan 9:26 concerning the destruction of the temple into the future but this is fallacy. The general theme of the passage was that Solomon’s temple which had been destroyed by the Babylonians was to be rebuilt unto the time of Messiah. After Messiah is cut of this same rebuilt temple (Built in the time of Nehimiah) would be destroyed by a people of a prince that shall come. This destruction was fulfilled in AD 70 by Titus Vespasian – the same destruction that Jesus spoke of in the so-called Olivet Discourse. The passage does not speak of a future rebuilt third temple. This is where the mistake arise by putting the 70th week way off into the future and supposing that this week marks 7 years of tribulation. Not supported by scripture.

18. Jerry kelso - March 2, 2012

Henry, I don’t know why you think we are going around in circles. I said what the scriptures said and when they happen and the detail of them.
Revelation 6 is the beginning of sorrows which Matthew 24 talks about. The Heaven rolled as a scroll has the men on earth seeing the one upon the throne. The wrath of the lamb is not the same as the wrath of God because it is through the trumpet judgements and the wrath of God leads up to the battle of Armageddon. Also, in Revelation 19 shows that when heaven is opened Christ is seen on a white horse.
The 1st part of the seals is about the Antichrist coming onto the scene in peace which is a false peace and only last three and one half years which is 1260 days. Remember Antioch Epiphanes who desolated the temple and spoke peace with flattering lips and so on? Thessalonians shows that the Antichrist will desolate the temple too. 2Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 12. Daniel 9:27 tells of the covenant being broke in the middle of the week.
Henry Kissinger said, Obama was the one to lead us (America) into the New World Order. Obama has said, he will do what Carter, Clinton, and Bush could not do and that was the peace treaty. This means the main peace treaty to protect Israel. If you watch what is going on in the world and our country and the way Obama and the hidden powers of the world are doing and directing everything you can understand what is fixing to happen very soon.
I am about to run out of battery power here at starbucks so I will reply on Daniel’s 70th week tomorrow.
Suffice to say that in Luke 21:26; ;mens hearts will be failing them for fear and for looking after the things on earth and for the powers of heaven shall be shaken and then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. This harmonizes with Revelation 19:11. There is no other scripture that says when Christ comes back again they see the one on the throne. Isaiah says, for fear of the Lord and for the glory of his majesty when he ariseth to shake terrible the earth. It also says that in verse 10 also. But, nowhere does it say that men see the one on the throne who would be God the father. Matthew 24 says, that the tribes of the earth will mourn and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the cloud of heaven with power and great glory. This is after the days of tribulation. Acts 2 talks about those wonders in heaven and the signs on earth happening before the great and notable day of the Lord.
My point is that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 harmonize with earthlings seeing Jesus coming back in the clouds ready for war and not God the Father or God the Son sitting on the throne.
Now you can give your reply and we definitely can go further in a deeper exegetical objection, which will be great. But, I want to make it clear that I have given scriptural and detailed comparison of scriptures.
Actually, if you don’t mind me asking, before you give me a reply, would you tell me your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:31, when Paul said, I die daily? I know this sounds strange but I’ll tell you why I asked and what that has to do with what we are talking about. Thanks and God bless! Jerry Kelso

19. Jerry kelso - March 2, 2012

Henry, I know you haven’t responded to my last post yet, but, I thought I would go ahead and mention about Daniel 9:26-27.
I understand why you put this at A.D. 70 and at first glance, I would agree with you. However, if you take the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary being the people of Titus you would have a tough time.
There were rogue armies that were supposed to be under Titus control and they didn’t listen. Titus said, that in no case did he want the temple disturbed at all for any reason. Because of this and that he had no covenant for 7 years with Israel the 26th has to be in conjunction with the 27th verse which has the Antichrist confirming the context. The whole essence of verse 20-27 is about Is about Israel’s final repentance and restoration forever so that there will be everlasting righteousness which, has to do with the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
The 3rd, temple is not hard to understand if you read Daniel 12 and Revelation 11. They are very plain of the time factor being the future tribulation. I will stop here for now. Thanks and God bless! Jerry Kelso

20. Henry - March 5, 2012

Jerry Kelso,

From your response it appears you are saying that the event of the heavens opening in the Sixth Seal (Rev 6, 7) is a separate event in time to the sign of the Son of Man in the Heavens in Matt 24. As far as I am concerned these events are one and the same but told by the authors from slightly different perspectives. You cannot make an argument that because the writer doesn’t say that God is seen seated on the throne in Matt 24 that those events are different from the opening of the sixth seal. Let me show you why!

In Matt 24 the disciples ask Jesus when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of His coming. Jesus gave the sign of His coming in verses 29 to 31. Do bear this in mind.

When we get to Revelations we see Jesus giving John a vision of the events that were to happen in the future. Jesus commanded John to write the things which were revealed and send them to the seven churches. In those revelations Jesus told John to write to the churches saying “I am coming soon” (Rev 3:11, Rev 22:12). The first question for you to answer therefore is at what point in Revelations do we see Jesus coming for the first time (after the ascension)? Is it Rev 19:11 or is it Rev 6:12-17 through to Rev 7:1-17 when the sixth seal was opened?

Note the similarities between Rev 6:17 and Luke 21:36 (a retelling of Matt 24). Rev 6:17 asks “who is able to stand?” Luke 21:36 on the other hand says “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” Now this is where the preterists say that Jesus’ second coming has already been fulfilled in the life-time of the disciples because of the promise that “this generation shall not pass away till all these things have happened.” Some argue that the rapture will occur before Christ’s visible coming but the question for me is that if this is the case why does Jesus give the sign of His coming to people who were not going to be around to see it in the first place? Is this why Jesus says “pray you are able to stand before the Son of Man in that day when He is seen descending with the clouds of Heaven?

Why also does Jesus warn the disciples and by extension the church that they should be careful how they lived so that the day does not come upon them unawares? Was Jesus talking about a secret rapture here or the day of His coming in the clouds of heaven (Acts 1:11)?

34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21)

What also does Peter look for the day of the Lord when the heavens shall depart if he is going to be what Christ and not be on earth to witness this day?

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (2 Pet 3)
With regards to 1 Cor 15:31, I am not sure what you are getting at. However we are called in Christ to die daily – die to the flesh and live to the spirit and this is similar to what Jesus was saying in Luk 21:34 quoted above.

It seems to me then that we need to get the timing of events concerning Christ’s coming correct before discussing a whole range of other issues. The Holy Spirit inspired Peter (as with other Bible writers) to write what He said in the verses above. If Peter therefore was to be raptured before Christ visible coming then the Holy Spirit would not have inspired him to write we should be looking to the coming of the day of God when the heavens pass away – a day when Christ comes like a thief in the night. The sixth seal and Matt 24 (Luke 21) must therefore be occurring at the same time.

As for the issue of Dan 9 that is for another day but I would encourage you to study carefully before making incorrect assumptions.

21. Jerry kelso - March 5, 2012

Henry, I am sorry, I have to go but, I will reply to you later in detail.
The reason for 1 Corinthians 15, I die daily is I wanted to see whether or not you would answer the context of which you did not. Most everybody gives the same answer you did which was the spiritual perception. When Paul said I die daily it had nothing to do with dying to sin or crucifying the flesh each day. So I would encourage you to read it again and see what the true meaning of that phrase means and why it is important. I don’t say this in a condescending way but, just to make the point of why it is important to understand the context of that passage. The reason is that it can affect how consistent or inconsistent your hermeneutics may be overall. This doesn’t necessarily mean you are wrong in your position because some passages are easier than others. God Bless!. Jerry Kelso

22. Henry - March 6, 2012

Jerry,

I think Paul was saying that he was faced with the prospect of death every day. This puts a believer on his toes such that he should seek everday to abide in Christ know he may die any moment. Dying to the flesh/self is not dissimilar as this also keeps us on our toes for the things of Christ given that we too can die at any moment even if there is no visibly imminent danger.

23. Jerry kelso - March 6, 2012

Henry, You are not wrong in your assessment about the flesh/self keeping us on our toes and I would not argue that it could not come into play. However, in the context dying to self or crucifying the flesh is nowhere to be found.
The reason this is important is because it is not what Paul was saying and this is how we get wrong doctrine.
Paul said that the death, burial, and resurrection was the only gospel. In verse 12 he was speaking to people who didn’t believe in the physical resurrection. He said that if they put there lives on the line for the cause of Christ everyday and there is no hope of a physical resurrection he might as well eat, drink, and be merry for there is no tomorrow. Everything to Paul was in vain, such as, their preaching, Christ dying, people’s faith, if there was no physical resurrection. This is why he said, why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus, our Lord I die daily. Paul was not protesting about spiritual dying to self. Matter of fact, he said right before that about those who baptized for the dead is stupid if they didn’t believe in a physical resurrection. Paul even gave the list for the order of the physical resurrection.
1 Peter 1-2 states, Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lust of men, but to the will of God.
Paul believed in dying to sin once as Christ died. Romans 6:6-10. The old man dies when we get saved that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin. We still are human to the point that we have temptations and we are in a war and could be caught off guard at anytime if we are not prepared. We are perfect in love but, not knowledge. What we speak Satan can hear and that is why the prayer language of tongues is important because the devil cannot understand that.
In Ephesians 4:17 Paul tells the Ephesians not to walk as the Gentiles because he taught them better than that. He taught them to put off the old man and be renewed in their mind. It was about how they were acting that was contrary to what he taught them. In verse 22 he said the old man is corrupt according in the deceitful lusts. It is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldliness. Titus. 2:12. The new man is created in righteousness and true holiness. Ephesians 4:24. The new man is saved and the old man is the disobedient works of the enemy.
Not to throw the baby out with the bathwater we are targets for the enemy to steal, kill, and destroy. 1 Peter 5:8. We are to grow from grace to grace and renew our minds. We are to mortify our members. What is crucifying the flesh?
It cannot be the old man inside you if you are truly saved. But, on the other hand we can be oppressed by demonic spirits through temptations and if we obsess or gravel in it eventually it can have some control in our lives. It is like having the law mentality instead of grace mentality. The reason it is important to make this distinction is because too many christians believe in a dual nature to the extreme that they think the old man lives inside them and this is why they are apt to live more defeated than victorious because they think that is who they are. We need to believe what the word of God says we are and who we are in Christ. Also, many people believe that they have to beat the old man in submission everyday. This type of thinking leads to self effort to defeat Satan and we are nowhere near strong enough to beat him and that is why we need God. This is self effort which was the law mentality and the new man and the new covenant way of thinking and provision is much different.
If one thinks that Romans 7 is a norm for new covenant people’s way of living everyday then no wonder we are a terrible example and witness for God in the eyes of the world because we are living in the frailty of man which was produced in the manner of the law of sin and death which took advantage of the Mosaic law that was Holy and Good in what it said, but, could not help you do and the result was living in the frailty of man. One can get some truth out of a passage and still miss the main point of the passage.
I’m sorry I got off a little bit of the beaten path but, it goes in line with what people think dying daily means.
So in conclusion, the exact phrase was about the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that they defended everyday. 2 Corinthians 4:10-12. We bear about in our bodies the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For which we are delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest if our life, So then death worketh in us and life in you. They were not trying to defend the protest about how much they died to sin everyday. As I said before even though recognizing Christ to be increased and us decreased comes in to play, that was not Paul’s main point. To be honest, we need more of a mentality of entire sanctification than an everyday dying to self because we are only human, and self effort attitudes and action.
My point was context and not what the preacher said, or tradition said, or what one’s point of view is or some close connection. This is important because this is how we get doctrines that have some truth but, go to extreme. One example is giving; teachers are not wrong is the laws of sowing and reaping, stewardship, and wanting to honor God, but, they could be wrong if they are using the 30, 60, or 90 fold when it has nothing to do with sowing money or reaping money. God Bless. Jerry Kelso

Jerry kelso - March 6, 2012

Henry, You say I cannot make an argument about Revelation 6, because you have a complete picture in Revelation 6 and Revelation 19. You base your belief on the similar pictures in Revelation 6 as in Isaiah 2 and I have no problem with that. Jack Van Impe has the same belief and I love Brother Jack and value his knowledge of the word and obviously you have it too.
Upon your reasoning I can also say that these two events are not the same because they do not have the same setting. Revelation 6 people are afraid and there will be people afraid at his coming. But, considering that the kings of the earth and mighty men and others will be a part of the beast kingdom they will be obstinate and deluded towards God because the wrath of God is reserved for the beast kingdom worshippers. Read Revelation 14:9, the third angels warning of those who worship the beast and take the mark in the forehead or hand. The one on the throne doesn’t seem to fit the scenario. Also, the day of the Lord in the old testament was seen as a time of judgement for Israel and nations as well as the one day of the second advent and the whole Millennial Kingdom. Zechariah 14:-9; Isaiah 2:12; Isaiah 13:6; 9; 34:8; Ezekiel 30:3; Amos 5:18; Joel 2:1; Zephaniah 1:7, 8, 18; 2:2-3; Malachi 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Peter 3:10.
Luke 17:34-37 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:40-42. This shows the Second Advent and not the rapture. The key is the disciples question of where and Jesus answer of his description. The two in the field, one left and one taken away. You want to be the one left for the one take away in the Battle of the Armageddon will be killed. This is shown in Revelation 19:17-21; at the supper of the great God. Luke and Matthew mention where the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. These will be those left on earth that have not been raptured with the tribulation saints from Revelation 6:5 and Revelation 7 and Revelation 15:2. This is not the church in these passages. Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Jude 1:14-16.
Peter’s passage is about the Day of the Lord which all the old testament prophets understood. They didn’t understand the rapture and that is why Paul called it a mystery, 1 Corinthians 15:52: Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. V52; In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The apostles being Jews understood the Day of the Lord also. Also, Martha understood the resurrection of the dead which was an old testament doctrine; John 11:24; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:4-6. Only the dead are raised at the end of the tribulation which is Revelation 15:2-3 and Revelation 20:4-6. This is called the 1st Resurrection. Even this resurrection is right before the Wrath of God in Revelation 16:1 which is the 7 vials poured out on the beast kingdom worshippers specifically and leads the kings of the East and all the nations of the world to the battle of Armageddon.
2 Peter 3:1-7 Peter discusses the Day of the Lord for the scoffers will be ignorant of the impending judgement of it. Matthew 24; As in the days of Noah, they’ll be drinking etc. Verses 8-9, is not a time factor for the church as far as the 1000 years as one day and vice versa but, rather this is why he has put off the day of judgement for he wants all men to repent. 1 Timothy 2:4; Revelation 22:17.
There will be gentile believers and jewish believers in the tribulation but, this does not mean the church is in there. It is the Jew that have to be purged to be established in the new covenant as a nation so they can take their position as the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4; Also, when they come back to God by repentance; Hebrews 8:1-13. They were under a blessing and cursing system and this is why Jesus said to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand in his earthly ministry. Matthew 4:17. Sadly, Israel rejected them Matthew 23:37-39. But, the 2nd time they will accept him Zechariah 13 and 14.
The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Israel has been trodden down, especially since A.D. 70. But, they are still trodden down because they are still backslidden as a nation. Saved Jew today are part of the body of Christ and will be raptured with us for their is no jew and gentile in the body now for we are all equal. Those jews purged in the tribulation have an earthly calling.
The last point in 2 Peter 3:12-13, is the Day of God which is after the Millennium which is different than the Day of the Lord or looking for that Blessed Hope in Titus which is the rapture. The Day of God because God will be all in all. ! Corinthians 15:24:28. Revelation 21 shows that the renovation of the Heaven and Earth is after the White Throne Judgement of the wicked. This is after the 1000 year reign of the millennial kingdom because at the end of that kingdom is the war in which Satan’s last rebellion is thwarted and he is thrown into the lake of fire and the Great White Throne judgement for the wicked happens.
The conclusion is that you can’t merely go by what a passage looks like what another verse says or appears like. This is why proper exegesis is important. This is not to say that you didn’t exegete it but, the appearance of Isaiah 2 and Revelation 6 and then Matthew 24 is pretty convincing. Just like the phrase I die daily fools many people because they have heard and been taught that it is the spiritual perception because you can’t physically die everyday. The truth is technically, one could die everyday because God has the power to raise you up. It is a possibility but, not a probability. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

24. Henry - March 6, 2012

Jerry,
There is much truth in what you have said here. However I would not necessarily have used what Paul says in 1 Cor 15 to support the idea of the need to die to self daily. Perphas this derives more from Lk 9:23 where we are called to take up our cross daily and follow Jesus.

I didn’t know what your purpose was by raising the point though it distracts from the issues in view under this post.

Stef - March 7, 2012

Henry, it is very, very clear by dozens of Jesus quotes that “dying” is literal and that is a necessary main component to being a “dead in christ”, and yes it has to do with dying to ALL carnal desires, but as it pertains to ALL means not holding on to literal physical life by hiding what we know, because it will be met with hatred and that some could kill over. Thus “taking up one’s cross daily” is willfully looking death in the eye (as represented by the cross and the hatred that brought about it’s use as an execution method) and instead of cowering to the discomfort of such pressing to show what we know is the truth about the Kingdom of God.

In this day in age, Jesus’ teachings are watered down to the tenants of a country club, and it’s members will fight tooth and nail against anyone that threatens the extreme illusionary comfort and profit level, but mostly that fight against is today done by ignoring what’s seen as the fringe (what Jesus certainly represented when he was physically present).

So there is no way to really “take up one’s cross” by telling people about Jesus because 99% of the people in one way or another respect Jesus (though no one likes someone in their face, when they havnt’ asked, which by the way, whether you think this way or not, when you have a public blog, you are asking for other’s input, so what I say is not being forced on you or anyone else.

So if you can’t handle what you get, why make your views public? Do you just want to preach to those who can’t shoot you down? Maybe so, but that doesn’t at all evidence the way Jesus did what he did and is certainly not dying daily.

Jerry kelso - March 8, 2012

Henry, The point in raising 1 Corinthians 15 about I die daily was hermeneutics.
Many go to seed in their interpretations of the word and thus go to extreme. This is why we have so many doctrines that go awry. Paul told the Corinthians to say the same thing so there be no divisions among the church. Why do you think that we have teachings on giving that go to the extreme.
As far as why I wanted to know what you thought on I die daily is because most everyone says to die to sin or crucify the flesh and they spiritualize the word without understand the real context.
It is important to know why a person says and believes what they do. Many people have no idea why they believe what they do.
Prophecy is kind of subjective and how one renders say, the book of Revelation doesn’t necessarily make or break their relationship with God. In the overall spectrum it could be a tell tale sign of how they rightly divide the word.
Catholics are considered bad because they believe salvation is not by faith alone. So the protestants get on to them about taking works to the extreme. The simple solution is knowing that the word says in its perspective context that we are justified by faith in the act of salvation as far as attaining salvation and works had nothing to do with it. Romans 4:1-5.
But, there are many christians that do not believe we are justified by works in salvation because of Romans 4. The truth is that James 2:14-26 talks about why Abraham was justified by works because works is a fruit and faith is never alone for faith without works is dead.
Now it is true that some catholics do believe in works to the extreme but, both parties that believe in justification by grace and works are correct if they believe it in the proper context.
The problem is that hermeneutics has been made a bad word. Everyone has them whether they realize it or not. We are not perfect in our knowledge and many people are at different levels of what knowledge they have. If we all truly understood more about proper biblical hermeneutics we wouldn’t have so many arguments and divisiveness. It doesn’t mean we would agree on everything but, we would get much closer.
Actually, the Apostles were the ones who set doctrine in the church 1 Corinthians 12:28. In Ephesians 4:11 was the giving. There is a difference in the giving and the setting. The giving didn’t have authority like the ones who had the setting. In the apostles day it was easier to look after the flock but, the longer time went it got harder because of so many opposing voices til finally the false apostles were becoming to numerous. Read Jude and 1 and 2nd Timothy, and Revelation. This is actually another subject of sorts even though we are talking about hermeneutics and context and such because it is relative to all the bible.
But, you are one of the few that ever get 1 Corinthians 15 right and that is good. One last point is that different denominations have different vises and hermeneutics than each other. There are reasons for this and I won’t go into it. God Bless! jerry kelso

25. Henry - March 8, 2012

Jerry,

I appreciate the point you are making about proper hermeneutics. I certainly agree that if we interpret things incorrectly then we will not end up with sound doctrine. That is the underlying principle of this blog. We are called to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15). Jesus Christ established one body which is the Church and we are called to be of one mind concerning Christ but unfortunately this is not the case in the churches. There are those also who would call us to have unity in error such as the ecumenical movement. But if we are in Christ we will heed the command to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. I am not saying I have perfect knowledge but I am willing to contend for the faith in the face of error and that is what my aim is through this blog. The problem however is that when people stand up for the truth they are normally branded as being divisive, judgemental and not dwelling in love. It is not my purpose to be any of those things but rather to attain to the things of Christ which pertains to salvation.

26. Jerry kelso - March 8, 2012

Henry, Thanks for the reply and I do believe that you, as well as I, are trying to contend for the faith. I have been in discussions before with people who didn’t know the real reason why they believed a particular doctrine. Even I have discussed at particular times with another and it sounded like a particular viewpoint and then I stereotyped them, only to find out when I thought about it more we believed basically the same thing but, it was not expressed very well. After we have studied a while and are pretty set in our position and understand other people’s position it is easy to jump the gun. That’s why I don’t like to be pegged in a box because that box may have something in it that I don’t believe and then I would be accused unfairly. Well, I’ll get off this and we can get back to the subject at hand about Revelation 6. So I await your reply from my last post March 6, 11:13 P.M.. This was my rebuttal to making the argument of the picture of the same event in different places. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

27. Henry - March 11, 2012

Jerry,
Sorry if I missed your comment previously. It wasn’t intentional. I do not present an argument simply because the scriptures appear similar. In Matt 24 the disciples desired to know what was the sign of Jesus coming. Jesus gave the assurance that He will be seen coming in the clouds of heaven as the lightening flashes from east to west. Note in John 14:1-4 that Jesus promised that He was going away to prepare for them and that if He goes He will come again to recieve them unto Himself. So when did Jesus say that He will return? He said, “after the tribulation of those days”. Are you about to tell me that there is a rapture somewhere in the passage prior to the time when He said He would come? Christ did not promise anywhere in the passage that He was going to rapture the desciples prior to His coming after the tribulation of those days. Hence the reason He gave the sign that it will be as the lightening flash from east to west so that if anyone else came claiming to be Him they shouldn’t be deceived and believe them.

When we get to Revelation we see Jesus giving John a vision of the future to convey to the churches. The seals were a preview of what was to happen both in heaven and earth thereafter. Some people assume that God’s wrath occurs from about the 1st seal (they say seal judgements) and then argue that since we are not appointed unto wrath then the rapture must occur before the 1st seal. I do not agree with this since we are told that it is at the sixth seal that God’s wrath has come. At the 5th seal we see a persecuted church and the saints being killed for the word of God and the testimony that they held. Are these merely tribulation saints? I do not agree. It is only at the sixt seal where we see heaven opened to revea the Lamb of God. If this is not Jesus coming for the second time as per the Matt 24 account then where is the evidence from Revelations where Christ came prior to the 6th seal to retrieve the church? Is this read into the text?

28. Jerry kelso - March 11, 2012

Henry, This subject has to come from comparing scripture and understanding context because there is not necessarily a plain statement of fact that say there is a rapture at any point, whether pre, mid, or post otherwise there would be no need for this discussion.
Matthew 24, the sign of Jesus according to the Jews is the tav. which is said to be the sign of the cross. The Jews say this is the mark God gave Cain for protection. I believe this is in an indirect way, but, it was just as much, if not more for vengeance for if they killed Cain they would be punished 7 times worse. Genesis 4:15. However, it is also recorded that tav protected all those that had the mark from the apostates who had defiled the temple from the wrath poured out on the apostates. Being that the jews have to come back to God according to their covenant the remnant who are scattered will be protected.
John 14 is a separate context than the second coming. He is preparing us a place in Heaven to live with him. The second advent is all about the kingdom on earth.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:12; If we suffer, we shall reign. Our rulership training as the church is now. We are being prepared to rule with Christ in the kingdom to come on earth. In Revelation 5:9, the church is singing a new song. In verse 10; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests. This is in the present tense. The latter part of the verse is; and we shall reign on the earth. This is in the future tense, for it will not be until the second coming we can take our rulership positions.
Revelation 6:9-11, show the souls under the altar, are not the church but, tribulation saints who have to wait for their fellow brothers to die later on in the second half of the tribulation and they are known as the blessed dead in Revelation 14:13. These people die and wait for the others who have to die for the cause of Christ. Where are those that will be raptured without death; not here.
The 144,000 are raptured in Revelation 14 which is around the middle of the tribulation, but, they were only 144,000 jews and they were living. So where are the raptured dead? Not here.
The last group to be resurrected outside of the 2 witnesses, unless you believe that they are raptured in the 1st half; are the blessed dead in Revelation 15:2; which are Jewish believers for they sing the song of Moses and the lamb. There are no living here. In Revelation 20:4-6, these are those tribulation saints in chapter 15 and they are said to be the first resurrection. There are no living saints raptured here. This is because it is the resurrection of the dead which Martha talked about in John 11:24 and Hebrews talks about in Hebrews 6:2. This was an old testament doctrine about the resurrection of the dead, not the living being changed. This is why 1 Corinthians 15:52 says those changed in the twinkling of an eye was a mystery. The Jews understood about the kingdom on earth and the resurrection of the dead but, they did not fully understand about the church of the jews and gentiles in one body alike and did not understand the catching away of the church.
We have a heavenly calling which includes earthly rule. But, the Jewish nation has an earthly calling as being the head of the nations. Read Isaiah 2:2-4 and the law and the prophets. Matter of fact the church of the Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ on the same level ground was not until 8 to 10 years after the Day of Pentecost. This is why when Peter was given vision of the clean and unclean he didn’t understand, because the gentiles were considered unclean. Jesus called the woman from Canaan a dog. Matthew 15:22.
So the bottom line in the context of these passages there is no rapture of living people being changed in the twinkling of an eye and of the dead at the same time.
Now we do know there is a second advent that occurs just like Matthew 24 and Revelation 19:11-15. Since there is not a clear, plain statement when the rapture happens we must go to the context of scripture and the purpose found in the calling of the church which has a heavenly calling and the jewish nation with the earthly calling and the nature of the coming.
1. The nature of the rapture is the Lord rapturing the saints who are alive and he brings with him from heaven the dead of which used to be in Abraham’s bosom which was in the heart of the earth. Luke 16:19-26. After his resurrection he led them (the captivity captive) to Heaven on high. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 shows a clear picture of this event happening in the sky. In Revelation 19:11-15 shows that Heaven is opened and John see Christ with the saints dressed in white but, for battle. The living are not going to Heaven but, are coming from Heaven and the dead are not mentioned unless you try to make the saints in Revelation 19 nothing but, the resurrected dead. Verse 14 which were in Heaven is past tense. In Revelation 19:7-9 shows the saints in Heaven and has made herself ready for the marriage supper of the lamb. The lamb is only seen in Heaven during the tribulation. The marriage supper of the lamb is separate from the supper of the Great God for those who spiritualize it. Some who believe Post-Trib rapture believe the Thessalonians account will happen right before the 2nd coming. It would have to happen before. I would say that Thessalonians seems like the Blessed hope of Titus, not to do with battle. But, I am sure that the Post tribbers would say that the different natures of the coming wouldn’t bother them because it is at different times. If their foregoing conclusion is wrong, then it would be contrived.
Let’s go to mid-trib. They use 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6 is possible if you say the
Day of Christ is the rapture. There are references to the Day of Christ being the rapture such as 1 Corinthians 1:8. But, Thessalonians is talking about the 2nd Advent. The apostasy and the man of sin being revealed defiling the temple will happen before the 2nd Advent. So it could not be mid trib.
Revelation 1:19 is the time factor for the tribulation. Write the things which thou hast seen and the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter. John had seen the vision in Revelation 1:10-16. The churches were present day in Chapters 2-3. In Revelation 4:1 has the door in heaven and he heard as it were a trumpet talking with him and said to Come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Then he shows him heaven and the saints in heaven glorifying God. Revelation 4-5. After that you do not see any markings of the church for they have overcome and have been raptured. As we have already shown in Revelation 6, the martyrs, the 2 companies of the redeemed in Revelation 7, The 2 Witnesses in Revelation 11 and the Blessed Dead in Revelation 15 which is in Revelation 20 have no indication of the living saints on earth being raptured right after in the same setting as any dead believers who are coming from Heaven with Christ and meet in the air.
Last, If the rapture happened towards the end then it might be said that the remnant would go up in the rapture. This is why the Noah account in Matthew 24, one left behind and one remaining doesn’t fit that scenario. You want to be the one left behind and not taken. This is why Jesus told those people in that day to persevere unto the end.
God’s wrath is not Revelation 6 which is the beginning of sorrows. The wrath of the Lamb is through the trumpet judgements, for the Lamb is in Heaven during the tribulation. The Wrath of God is on the beast kingdom in Revelation 16. I must go cause I am fixing to lose power, but, I’ll be back. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

29. Henry - March 14, 2012

Jerry,

Some of what you say here amounts to speculation at best especially in your opening paragraph. I don’t particularly care for what the Jews choose to believe – if it is not in the Bible it is not biblical. I think it is perhaps best to leave this subject since we are unable to come to agreement here. You keep restating the same arguments and we are not really getting anywhere. Several posts back I said lets look at this point by point but each time you respond you produce everything you believe on the subject all rolled into one. You keep using terms like “second half of tribulation” and I asked you how do you determine what constitutes first half, mid or second half of the tribulation but to date you have still not replied to that.

Let me therefore highlight a few points where we disagree:

1) Seems you believe that Abraham’s bosom is a litteral place under the earth (later taken to heaven when Christ resurrected), I believe the story of the rich man and lazarus was no more than a parable and some bible concordances list it as such. Hence I do not believe we go straight to heaven on death but rather that we await the resurrection.

2) You believe that Matt 24:29-31 is a separate event in time to the events of the 6th Seal in Rev 6 but I do not agree here. For me they are one and the same events but told from different perspectives.

3) You believe in a future 7 year tribulation period based on Daniel 70th week. I believe Daniel’s 70th week is already fulfilled and the abomination of desolation already fulfilled.

4) You believe the anti-christ will make covenant with Israel based on Daniel 9 and that he will take over a future rebuilt temple. I believe Daniel 9 does not mention anti-christ nor does it mention a future rebuilt temple. Daniel 9 speaks only of the second temple and there is no prophesy concerning a future temple.

5) You believe the so-called rapture occurs before the coming of the Lord as stated in Matt 24 after the tribulation of those – I believe the Lord comes after the tribulation of those days as He says and will gather the elect there and then. I do not believe the tribulation spoken of here last 3 days or even 3.5 days (years) for that matter.

6) You believe that Israel will be made desolate a third time as per point 4 above – I believe no so such thing. Rather I believe Israel will be regathered a second time as per Isaiah 11 after which there will be perfect peace.

These are some of the main points so far on which we disagree which is why our theology is considerably different. You may ask me why I believe differently but all I have stated what I believe is the scriptural position in the posts under the Eschatology category. We can therefore discuss those if you wish but with all due respect I don’t think we are getting anywhere with this discussion here.

5

30. Jerry kelso - March 18, 2012

Henry, I touched on the main scriptures that you used to try and prove that Revelation 6. Isaiah 2:19-22, Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 6. I went over these in depth. The fact is you believe Revelation 6 is a panoramic view of the whole tribulation. That is fine and you have the right to believe that for many people do believe that. The truth is that the day of the Lord has reference to the last half of the tribulation which is the 1260 days of Revelation 11 and known as Jacob’s trouble in Daniel 12 as well as Jeremiah 30:6-7. This is the way you have to understand the Isaiah passage. There are plenty passages that bares out that the day of the Lord as the one day of the second advent at the battle of Armageddon but, not in the Isaiah passage.
The silence in Heaven is in conjunction with part of a Yom Kippur Service which is shown in Revelation 8:1-6. The truth is that there is most likely never silence in Heaven because the 4 beasts worship God day and night without stopping; Revelation 4:8. So there has to be a particular reason that there is any silence in Heaven taking place. The Yom Kippur service is scriptural and unless you can prove another scripture about us coming from out of Heaven being the silence at that time it is mere conjecture and opinion. So I have given you scripture and not pre-supposition. This answers your 1st paragraph of objections.
Now I will answer the next set.
1. Abraham and the rich man is no parable because Jesus never used real names in parables and it was to also prove the great gulf between Abraham’s bosom and hell. Hell is in the lower parts of the earth which was prepared for the devil and his angels. The rich man saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom. Read Luke 19. Who do you think the captives Christ led to Heaven when he arose? It sure wasn’t the rich man in hell. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 plainly says that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. God is in Heaven.
The spirit body goes to heaven to await the resurrection of the perfect physical body.
2. I have already answered Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 6 at the beginning of this post. There is no resurrection or post rapture mentioned in Matthew 24 at all. Neither is there in Revelation 6.
3. We haven’t really discussed Daniel’s 70th week. The Catholics believe that it has already happened but, it is pure historical straw men that they use. I don’t know your exact take but, I agree that there is a historical context of the Abomination of Desolation in the Book of Daniel but, that was just a foreshadowing of the future. I don’t have time to go through the shifts of prophecy concerning the King of the North and the King of the South right now but, look at Revelation 11 and you will find the temple has an altar and there are worshippers in it. Some say this passage is a mere building of the temple because the angel is told to measure it. However, this rod in it’s context is about desolation. The holy city will be tread under 42 months. The Antichrist will have partial control which includes desolating the temple not, just the outer court of the gentiles. Daniel 8:10. Revelation 11 is future in the tribulation, so there is a temple not only here but, in the kingdom age as well if you read Ezekiel 40-48.
4. The reason you don’t see a rebuilt temple or an abomination is because you fail to see the future picture in Daniel 9:26 and 27. As far as I recall Antioch Epiphanes never made a covenant with Israel or at least that led to the battle of Armageddon such as we see in Revelation 6-19. Revelation 11:1-2 shows a temple in the future with worshippers and the holy city trodden for 3 and one half years. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has the future AntiChrist sitting in the future temple shewing himself that he is God. This is plain scripture.
5. Matthew 24 of the gathering of the elect is actually the jewish elect which is in conjunction with verses 22-24. The 3 and one half years is 1260 days found in Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 11:2-3. Both of these accounts are the Great Tribulation which is the latter Half of the tribulation known as Jacob’s trouble. Jeremiah 30:6-7 and Daniel 12:1.
I don’t have time to go through this part but, there will actually be a false regathering at the first. The truth is that Israel has there covenant promise from God to be the head of the nations forever in Isaiah 2:2-4 but, they have to come back to God before this happens. Read Psalms 89:29, Isaiah 9:6-7; Hebrews 8:7-13. Israel has the law forever to be kept under New Covenant Standards before they can be at the Head of the Nations. Zechariah 13:9 talks about the third that will come through the fire and be refined as silver, tried as gold. Verse 8 talks about the two thirds being cut off. This is talking about the part of the remnant that is scattered from the woman in the wilderness. Read Revelation 12:6-17.
Isaiah 11 speaks of the 2nd Advent. His 1st coming was when he was babe in a manger and lived as the suffering Messiah and Israel rejected him. Matthew 1 and Matthew 23:37-39. This harmonizes with Isaiah 9:6; For unto us a child is born and the suffering servant Isaiah 52:14 and all of Isaiah 53 for the suffering Messiah and rejection of men which included Israel; v 8.
I have given you scriptural proof and context and have fairly answered to your objections.
I would add one more thing. One can go to extreme of Biblical Hermeneutics whether it be literal or figurative. There also has to be an understanding of history as well because the Bible does not share every jot and tittle of everything custom and etc. What I mean by that is that the Bible is our base but, there are certain things that history can bring out to enhance the truth and help us sometimes to uncover or discover the truth in the word. I love the KJV but, it is a version and is not completely perfect even though it is all truth. That is for another time. I say this in reference to your comment about not caring what the Jews thought. I also did not say that it was a thus saith God truth from the scriptures.
So now I believe that I have answered your post before this one so, feel free to answer back. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

31. Michele - March 18, 2012

Hi–Linked over here from a comment you left at another blog I frequent and saw this article on the pre-trib rapture “myth.”

I perceive that you are a brother in Christ, one who has trusted in Christ’s shed blood for the forgiveness of your sin and believing that he rose again for your justification. I would like to offer some things for your consideration, study, and prayer.

In order to teach or share sound doctrine, we must study by rightly dividing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation (Eph. 1:13). All the confusion about the rapture (our being caught up together with the Lord in the clouds) comes from not following this command given by the Lord–Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), as well as from not considering what Paul says– Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things (2 Tim. 2:7).

Our Apostle Paul was given the revelation of the mystery which had been kept secret since the world began (Rom. 16:25) and hid in God (Eph. 3:9) until the Lord saved Saul of Tarsus by his grace and made him the first member of the the Church, the body of Christ–Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should HEREAFTER believe on him to life everlasting.

Our Apostle was not teaching the same doctrine that was given to the little flock of Israel, because Israel was a different program that God was implementing, i.e., the earthly kingdom that believing Israel was/is to inherit, ruling and reigning with Christ upon the earth. The revelation of the mystery has to do with the formation of the the Church, the body of Christ to inherit the heavenly places, ruling and reigning with Christ in the heavenlies (you cannot find this in the Scriptures prior to Paul’s revelation given to him by the Lord Jesus Christ, because it all had to do with the earth). In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Please consider:

Ephesians 1:

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith OF him.

Once we have considered Paul and follow him as he followed Christ (which is the Lord’s will for every member of the BOC), then we begin to have the wisdom and understanding that the Lord wants us to have, all to his glory. Sound doctrine is found in Romans-Philemon which are the letters penned by the Apostle Paul–The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write (2 Thess 3:17). False doctrine/confusion (of Satan) comes from mixing the two programs, law and grace, together and I have been guilty of doing that in the past, as well, albeit ignorantly; however, by the grace of God and his mercy and goodness, I have been recovered out of the snare of the devil; I pray you will be, too–And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Members of the body of Christ are taken captive by the devil at his will by mixing the two programs together, i.e., earthly/heavely, prophecy/mystery, law/grace, and this is satan’s policy of evil, the mystery of iniquity which produces false doctrines and a false gospel, hiding Paul’s gospel given to him by the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

32. Henry - March 19, 2012

Jerry,

It is not so much that I believe Revelation 6 is a panoramic view of the whole tribulation but certainly I believe that the 4 horsemen are a reflection of the tribulation spoken of in Matt 24 being that they are the events which leads up to Christ’s second Advent. Matt 24 records that Christ’s second Advent is “after the tribulation of those days” and similarly Rev 6 puts the second Advent of Jesus Christ at the sixth seal. Look at the scriptures again:

Matt 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I have asked you several questions pertaining to this before to which you have still not answered adequately. How many advents of Christ are there when He comes to gather the elect? Note that Rev 6 continues into Rev 7 and here we see an angel telling the 4 angels not to hurt the earth till “we” have sealed the servants of “our” God. This is clearly a reference to Matt 24:31 where Jesus said He would send His angels to gather the elect from the 4 winds. According to you no resurrection is mentioned in these two accounts so does that mean because it is not mentioned that the resurrection is not taking place then? This is not how you should read scriptures but read them in conjunction with other scriptures. What did the disciples ask Jesus in Matt 24?

Matt 24:3
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples wanted to know the sign of His coming and of the end of the world. So it was the signs of the end of the world that Jesus related in the passage. Consider the following scriptures also:

John 6:40
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Pet 1:5
And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. (NLT)

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

We see here that the salvation we await we receive on the last day when the dead that are in Christ are raised up and so too the judgment is meted out on the last day. So here is the question? If Matt 24 and Rev 6 speaks of the end of the world or “the last day”, is there a “resurrection and catching away” (the so-called rapture) occurring prior to this event? That would not make any sense if Jesus already said He would raise up those who believe in Him on the last day.

So enter Paul:

1 Cor 15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

The whole passage should be read to understand what Paul was saying concerning the resurrection of the dead – this he says will occur at the last trump – a synonym for the last day, as Jesus already stated in John 6. 1 Cor 15 is similar to 1 Thess 4:13:17:

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

Verse 15 of 1 Thess 4 is most interesting. Paul pointed out here that those people who were alive at Christ coming would not “precede” those who were already dead. Here is a thought, why would Paul use the word “precede” here if those who were dead were already with Christ? Verse 14 is also often misinterpreted to suggest that those who were dead were already in heaven and God would bring them back to earth with Jesus. The verse says no such thing but rather what it is saying is that in the same way that Jesus had risen from the dead God would also bring back (from the dead) those that had fallen asleep so that they too would be with the Lord. This is the reason Paul used the word “precede” in verse 15. So, at Christ’s coming the dead are raised and together with those that are alive are changed from mortality to immortality (1 Cor 15) so that we will be with the Lord for ever (1 Thess 4:17). This clearly ties in with what Jesus said from John 13:33 to John 14:4. Here Jesus promised the disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for them and that if He goes He will return to receive them unto Himself – this happens when He raises them up on the last day (John 6:39). If they were to be with Him (in spirit form in heaven on death) it makes no sense here that Jesus is saying He would come again to receive them so that where He is they can be also. The first resurrection takes place when Christ comes at the end of the ages – this is what He taught and this is what Paul also conveyed. There are no other resurrections prior to the ones referred to here. Rev 20:4-5 tells us clearly that those who died at the hands of the beast (because they did not take the mark or worship is image) were also a part of the first resurrection. There are some people however who attempt to say that the resurrection (and catching away) of 1 Thess 4 takes place sometime before the resurrection of those that were killed by the beast but this is not found anywhere in scripture.

We need to apply proper exegesis to ascertain what the scriptures are revealing to us. Let us therefore deal with this matter first before addressing all of the other points you have raised.

33. Michele - March 19, 2012

Here are some good studies for you and your readers to consider pertaining to the Day of the Lord:

This is just the first lesson in the series.

34. Henry - March 19, 2012

Hi Michelle,

Thanks for your comment. Indeed I believe in Christ’s shed blood for forgiveness of sin and I believe He rose again and that if I believe in Him and repent of my sins I can be saved (by Grace through faith).

I agree that in order to teach or share sound doctrine we must study and rightly divide the word of truth – that is absolutely right, which is why I am surprised that you believe that God is running “two programmes” and that the church began with Paul. Is that what Paul really taught?

I think you misunderstood the context of what Paul said in 1 Tim 1:16 where he says:

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Who was Paul? Paul was a Jew of Tarsus (in Syria) who was made an Apostle of Jesus on that encounter with the Lord on the Damascus road. What does the word Apostle mean? According to Strongs, it is from the Greek word Apostolos which means: “a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way”. Was Paul the first Apostle therefore? Well of course you know that he wasn’t since Jesus had called 12 before and SENT them out prior to Paul. So Paul was not the first in the church but rather the messenger or the apostle is the first person called to receive the message and then to take the message to those to whom it is being sent. It is in this context that Paul said he was “first” in that he was specifically called to bring the message of the Gospel to the Gentiles to whom he was addressing. The initial 12 were called to bring the message to the 12 tribes. But is God working two separate programmes? Here is what Paul stated in Eph 2

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This passage clearly shows that God has only one program in mind to reconcile those who were outside of the commonwealth of Israel into one body built up on the foundation, not only of Paul, but of ALL the apostles and prophets building up into a SINGLE temple (the church). This was also clearly laid out in Eph 1:5-6, which you quoted – the mystery was not revealed to Paul alone but to the APOSTLES, and the Gentiles were to become FELLOW HEIRS with ISRAEL, being of the same body in Christ. This is the new covenant which God foretold in Jer 31:31 and Heb 8. This is the whole plan to replace the law (the old covenant) with grace. I therefore agree with you that anyone mixing law with grace is not teaching sound doctrine and I have highlighted this very fact in other postings on this site.

I do not believe Paul preached anything different from the other apostles but what he preaches is in harmony with them. I would therefore encourage you to please consider what I have said in light of the scriptures because it seems you are of the view that God is working two separate programs – one for the Jew and one for non-Jews. Consider for example what Paul said in Romans 10:

1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (NIV)

Please do think about it.
God bless

Michele - March 19, 2012

Hi Henry,

First off, I’d like to clarify the gospel that saves us today, and Paul calls it, “my gospel.” If it is designated as his gospel by which the Lord made known unto him by revelation, then it is not the same gospel as the gospel of the circumcision (12 Apostles of Israel). There are no works required under Paul’s gospel (i.e., baptism, repentance, tithing, circumcision, walk the isle for Jesus, pray the sinner’s prayer or whatever else religion thinks up). All one has to do is believe/trust what Christ Jesus did on their behalf, trusting the fact of the gospel which is that you are reconciled to God, have forgiveness of all sins, and are justified by Christ’s atoning work in his death, burial and resurrection.

You commented, “which is why I am surprised that you believe that God is running “two programmes” and that the church began with Paul. Is that what Paul really taught?”

Yes, this is absolutely what Paul taught, but more importantly, the Lord spoke the words through Paul and it is Paul’s gospel and doctrine that we will be judged by at the judgment seat of Christ. There are two programs that God has implemented (but not operating at the same time), one having to do with reconciling the earth via Israel, for that is what most of the Bible is about (Gen. – John & Heb. – Rev.). The other being the BOC (wisdom and knowledge found in Rom. – Phil. and is, obviously, still being formed today because the fulness of the Gentiles has not come in–Rom. 11:25) made to reconcile the heavenly places, both spheres presently controlled by satan and his angels. God will use Israel upon the earth to rule and reign with him, and the BOC to rule and reign with him in the heavenlies and we know this by listening to Paul, and the Lord gives us understanding in all things.

Peter’s gospel is clearly not the same as Paul’s. Peter was the Apostle of the circumcision and Paul the Apostle to the uncircumcision–Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

You quoted Rom. 10:12 to say that there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for this is true in Paul’s gospel, but not while the Lord was in the flesh upon this earth nor during Peter’s preaching in the book of Acts. For there was a difference between Jew and Greek. As noted in the Galatian verses above, Peter was a steward of the gospel of the circumcision (Israel/law). The Jews had been what the Bible had been all about up until Paul. The far off Gentiles had no hope until Paul’s gospel was revealed.

Furthermore, Paul tells us in 2 Cor. 5:16–Wherefore hencforth know we no man after the flesh (Jew, Greek): yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (during his earthly ministry TO ISRAEL mind you), yet now, henceforth know we him NO MORE (not after his earthly ministry in the flesh). We know the Lord Jesus Christ according to Paul’s gospel and doctrine, not according to the Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel, who was looking for her earthly kingdom, nor according to Peter’s kingdom gospel.

Paul warns of those who preach another gospel which is not another, those that mix law and grace, prophecy with the mystery.

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) NOTE: The earthly things belong to Israel; the heavenly things belong to the BOC.

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

So many times throughout his letters Paul tells us to follow him as he followed Christ, because the other Apostles had different doctrine and means of salvation. They had faith plus works and had to endure unto the end. Not true for members of the BOC.

1 Cor. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

If you consider yourself spiritual, then you must acknowledge that the things Paul writes unto you are the commandments of the Lord, because the things which Peter and Paul taught were different in doctrine and practice. The Bible used to be so confusing to me until I understood that I was to follow Paul as he followed Christ, and not how Israel (Peter and the 11) were to follow Christ. I was tossed to and fro by several different church denominations and that is why you have so many denominations and teachings of Scripture because they have all turned away from following Paul’s gospel and doctrine–2 Tim. 2:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes…

Paul is the authority today–2 Tim. 2:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles (Peter and the 11 were ministers to Israel); God’s spokesman for the dispensation of the grace of God is the Apostle Paul, and if you read and study the word rightly divided, then you, too, will see the truth.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

You said, “I would therefore encourage you to please consider what I have said in light of the scriptures.” Dear sir, I have lived in what you are teaching for many of my “church years” (although I’m not totally sure I was saved until I understood Paul’s gospel, clearly apart from any mixing of Israel’s doctrine), and I lived in confusion, entangled with the yoke of bondage because that is what happens when you mix Israel’s prophetic, earthly inheritance with the BOC’s heavenly inheritance. Like I said before, it is satan’s method of hiding Paul’s grace gospel (not of works lest any man should boast).

2 Cor. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Paul’s gospel is by faith alone, no works. I ask: who’s gospel are most people trusting and putting their hope in? Paul’s or Peter’s? They are not the same. Study it out by dividing Paul from the other Apostles, because they did not have the same ministry, clearly.

35. Jerry kelso - March 20, 2012

Henry, I have made it clear that there is only the 1st advent and the 2nd Advent. The 1st being Christ ministry. The second will be the Day of the Lord at the Battle of Armageddon. The church will not be raptured at the 2nd Advent and we know the church of the one new man was not established in Christ’s ministry or at the day of Pentecost for that matter.
There are 5 raptures: Only 2 are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:23. 1. Christ the 1st fruits 2. Those at his coming which is the rapture of the church not the 2nd advent. This is found in 1 Corinthians 15:23; 52-54.
The reason that the rest are not mention is because they have to do with the tribulation.
3. The 144,000 Jews in Revelation 7 will be raptured to Heaven in Revelation 14.
4. You have in the great multitude the tribulation saints mentioned in Revelation 7 which will include all the saints from Revelation 6:1-19-20. Revelation 20:4-6
5. The 2 witnesses which is at the end of the tribulation Revelation 11:11-14.
The servants being sealed in Revelation 7 has nothing to do with the elect in Matthew 24:31. There are always trumpets sounding at gatherings but, this is not for the rapture and it is the jewish elect according to verse 22. I have said this before but, hopefully it will be a little clearer now in this context.
The Jews understood the last day because of the resurrection of the dead, but they didn’t know anything about the one new man. All they knew was about the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth where they would rule and reign with Messiah. John 6:40,44,54 etc. are talking about the last day of the redemption of the body. In John 12:48 makes the same reference for the sinners but, their resurrection is 1000 years later than the righteous, so your assumption of being the same day for believers and non believers is wrong.
As far as the trumpets and the last trump one needs to study the jewish history so they can ascertain whether or not they are applying the last trump to the right context.
The dead will be raised 1st and that is clear in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Then those that are alive and remain shall be caught up together. v17.
I already gave you scripture in Ephesians where the captives were taken from Abraham’s bosom to Heaven when Christ ascended. Every man has a spirit body underneath them and this is what is in Heaven. Read 1 Corinthians 15 about the different bodies. The resurrection will have a new resurrected infinite physical body. Jesus when he came back to earth after his resurrection, he still showed the wounds from the cross in his hands and feet. Matthew 20:24-25.
Your assessment of John 14:1-3 is totally wrong for 2 reasons. The 1st I have already explained which was about the last day.
The 2nd is that the rapture is a receiving of those that are alive in Christ whether dead or alive. The 2nd advent is not a receiving for we are coming with Christ out of Heaven. Revelation 19:11 gives a clear picture of this. I already gave you this fact and the scriptures like Revelation 11:18 which is the judgement of the saints in the middle of the tribulation and Revelation 19:7-10 which shows we are at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
I have answered all your objections.
I will say this, it is easy to miss certain scriptures relevant on a given subject because the Bible is so vast. Not, that you didn’t quote the scripture on John 12:48, but, you did miss the context. Now I am not saying you had tunnel vision on this, that is for you to be honest to yourself and decide. However, I can attest to the fact that I have done this before. And what I mean by tunnel vision is that subconsciously that term Last Day meant one certain point of a specified time and no other time. This is why the context is vital to exegesis. And I will try to read your whole post first next time so I’ll reply in the right manner. So if you want to talk further about exegesis that is fine. God Bless Jerry Kelso

36. Henry - March 20, 2012

Hi Michelle,
I think you are going about this the wrong way. It was Paul that said, “16ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim 3:16). Why then do you attempt to create a division between what Paul preached and what the other apostles preached? There is no such “gospel of the circumcision”. There is only one gospel which was first delivered to the original apostles and this is what Paul himself preached. Jesus said in Matt that the gospel should be preached in all the world before the end comes (Matt 24:14). Consequently He gave the original apostles the great commission:

Matt 28
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen

Notice that Jesus did not tell them to go to the Israelites only but to ALL nations. However, the 12 (which was revised after Judas’ death) went largely to the Israelites first. So this is why we read in Gal 2 that Peter received the gospel to preach to THEM of the circumcision, i.e., the Jews, whilst Paul himself received the commission to go and preach it to the Gentiles. It was Peter, James and John who gave Paul and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship – how could this be if it was a different gospel?

Gal 2
7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
You need to remember that the Gospel was given to the Jew first and then to the Gentile which is why the ministry of the 12 was long established before Paul. It was because the Jews in the main rejected the gospel that it came to the Gentiles and this is what Paul preached.
Rom 1
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 13
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God [the gospel] should first have been spoken to you[the Jews]: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (emphasis mine)

(see also Acts 28:24-29, Rom 11:1-32)

Paul did not receive a separate doctrine from the twelve but rather whilst the 12 were personally with Jesus when they received the Gospel, Paul received it by revelation and didn’t have to go up to Jerusalem. This is what Paul meant and not that he received a separate message. Further proof is found in Acts 15:

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This confirms there is no separate gospel or message to the Jew but the same gospel.

According to you there are no works required under Paul’s gospel and you cite examples as follows: “baptism, repentance, tithing, circumcision, walk the isle for Jesus, pray the sinner’s prayer or whatever else religion thinks up”.

Lets make some things clear – tithing and circumcision is of the Law and is not a part of the Gospel of Christ and this is why Paul did not preach it. This yoke of the law was the same yoke Peter referred to in Acts 15:10 quoted above. Walking the isle and praying the sinner’s prayer are not a requirement for salvation. However, as part of the great commission Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize those who believed. Paul also preached repentance in 2 Cor 7:9-10 and talks about baptism in Col 2:12, Eph 4:5 and Rom 6:4.

Going back to your point about no works being required for salvation, again I thin you have missed the point completely. In my opening paragraph I quoted Paul in 2 Tim 3:16-17 where he clearly states that we are to be furnished unto all good works. That is not the only place he mentions works either but also in Eph 2:10: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” That is Paul’s message not mine. How is it then that you say we are not to do works? The point however is that it is not works in themselves that save us but rather works are a demonstration of our faith – having faith in Christ means we must walk in the works that God has prepared for us to do.

If we follow Paul’s gospel then we do well but you really need to study Paul more carefully because you seem to be missing some major points that Paul made. Again Paul did not preach a different gospel from Peter if you go back and read the portion of Acts 15:7-11 above. This shows that Peter himself preached to the Gentiles and he declares that God did not put any difference between himself (the Jews) and the gentiles but that through the Grace of God him (the Jews) and the Gentiles will be saved. Same message!

Michele - March 21, 2012

We’ve touched on alot, but here are a few things that come to mind with regard to your latest comments.

1. You are missing my points about God using Israel to fulfill his kingdom on earth. Israel, all throughout Scripture, was told they would inherit an earthly kingdom with Christ ruling from his throne in Jerusalem. Also, overlooking my points about God forming the BOC to rule and reign with him in the heavenlies where our conversation is. Israel was never promised to rule in heaven, as we, the BOC are. Two spheres that God is working in as shown in Gen. 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. Scripture tells us that Satan usurped both places, for as it stands now, he is the god of this world, and the prince and the power of the air. Israel was to work with God to reclaim the earth for God’s glory, and they have fallen for a time, and their prophetic “program” is held in abeyance while the Lord forms the one new man, the BOC. The BOC is to work with God to reclaim the heavenly places for his glory. This is part of rightly dividing, and that does not take away or negate from 2 Tim. 3:16. I still use all scripture but I follow Paul as he followed Christ, which did not include water baptism, circumcision, turning from sins in order to be saved, tithing…keeping the law about sums it up.

2. Paul says, “Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1 Cor. 1:14-17).” No water baptism does anything for my inward man and it can do nothing to improve my flesh, just the same as circumcision, because as a saved member of the BOC, I am complete in Christ and I have the very righteousness of my Savior (how can you get any more righteous by submitting to water baptism?). The ONE baptism that Paul teaches us is the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the BOC(1 Cor. 12:13, Gal 3:27) and you can’t see it or feel it–you believe it. If you participate in water baptism, also (which I have in ignorance because some man confused me with it), that becomes 2 baptisms, not the ONE baptism that Paul teaches us about. It is a meaningless tradition of man, part of the mystery of iniquity, which makes the cross of Christ of none effect (just as circumcision would).

3. You quote Matt. 28, the great commission, which again, had to do with Israel’s earthly kingdom promises, and they were to preach that kingdom gospel to all nations. Matt. 28 were the words of the Lord Jesus Christ as a minister unto Israel, and not to the Gentiles. As I showed before in 2 Cor. 5:16–Wherefore hencforth know we no man after the flesh (Jew, Greek): yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (during his earthly ministry TO ISRAEL), yet now, henceforth know we him NO MORE (not after his earthly ministry in the flesh). Back under the 12 Apostles’ great commission ministry, the Gentiles could only be saved by coming through Israel. That is not the case today, because Israel fell and now all (Jew and Gentile alike) are saved by faith in the gospel which Paul preached (by faith, and not of works lest any man should boast), being added unto the BOC. Israel’s gospel entailed works. That is why Paul spends so much talking about this throughout his letters, because up to his salvation, the gospels throughout Scripture included works.

4. Based on your understanding of Peter and Paul preaching the same gospel, then the logical question becomes, “Why the Apostle Paul?” and “why designate it as my gospel?” His gospel is now to go to all the nations, not the great commission in Matt. 28. The Lord revealed unto Paul the Mystery, which was hid in God, as I said before but was apparently missed, and was not made known in the Scriptures before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Had Satan known Paul’s gospel, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory–But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor. 2:7-8). He clearly teaches contradictory doctrine from that which was taught by the Lord Jesus and the 12 Apostles. Anybody that is reading the Bible will come across those seeming contradictions and wonder why they say different things; the reason is God was doing a “new” thing, apart from Israel, in forming the one new man, the BOC, for the heavenly places.

Maybe this will help you to see the difference: http://paulsthepattern.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/dispensations-let-not-your-heart-be-troubled/

37. Jerry kelso - March 21, 2012

Michelle, Pardon me for interrupting you and Henry, but, I have read a couple of your posts. First, I must say that you detect differences in the early church and when Paul came around and that is good. But, the differences need to be in a clearer context.
1. In the 1st 8-10 years of the church was basically Jewish and they proselyted gentiles. Acts 1:12-14; 2:5
2. Then Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean and Cornelius and his household, who were gentiles, got saved and baptized with the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is when the church of the jews and gentiles in one body officially began. Paul was given this truth by revelation. Acts 10.
3. The gospel of salvation must be defined. Peter and the apostles preached the death, burial, and resurrection message of Christ by believing in Jesus name. Read Acts 2:22-36; Acts 2:38-39. Paul agrees that our salvation is in the finished work of Jesus Christ, death, burial, and resurrection; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Paul says, there is no other gospel. So this is the true gospel for Peter, Paul, circumcision and uncircumcision (meaning jew and gentile people).
Concerning water baptism, going down the aisle etc. is not the gospel. Repentance is the act of obedience to receive salvation but, is not the exact gospel. The gospel is the finished work of Christ which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, in which, we had no making to do in.
Now as far as the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven Mentality is completely different.
1. The KOH had nothing to do with the gentiles in Jesus day and this is a fact. Matthew 10:6-7. The KOG was not exactly the same thing for the church of one new man. Both the KOH and the KOG which John the Baptist and Jesus taught is another whole subject. But, I will stick with the KOH since in conjunction with the early church after Christ arose.
2. Acts 1:6-7 the disciples were still thinking about the earthly kingdom. This is why in Acts 2 and in the earlier chapters Peter and the disciples talked about the DBR and the Jews killing Jesus. Many passages of Peter sound like Kingdom Mentality because they were and this is why books like Hebrew and 1 and 2 Peter sound like they do. All the Jew understood about there eternal earthly promises as being the head of the nations. The new man was a mystery to them. Ephesians 3:1-6.
Just as a footnote; in the gospel of salvation there is no works, but, faith is never alone because it has grace and works. Grace that is unmerited favor and works that is the fruit of our obedience. Read Romans 4 and James 2. This will show how we are justified by faith and works.
In conclusion, There is only one gospel of salvation which is the DBR of Christ in Peter’s ministry to the circumcision (Jews) and Paul’s uncircumcision (Gentiles).
There is only one gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven reign and rule which pertains to the Millenial Kingdom. (read the gospel’s) and Daniel 7:27. I’ll stop on that note. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

38. Henry - March 21, 2012

Stef aka Sawyer,

Your comment has been disapproved because we do not hold to the view here that Paul is an imposter and that he taught something different from what Christ taught. You do not understand Paul’s ministry in relation to us today. Paul in his early life as Saul was an enemy of the church because he was a staunch Jew. He thought that the church was in error because they had gone away from what Moses preached and what the Pharisees upheld. But Christ through His mercy forgave Saul and had mercy upon him so that through him the gospel would be preached to the gentiles. The lesson therefore is that in spite of your sins and the errors of your ways God can forgive you, change you, clean you up and use you for his work and ministry. The gospel Paul preached is no different from that which was preached to the Disciples and which the Disciples also preached. You need to study this again carefully before you go around telling people to reject Paul’s doctrine.

39. Jerry kelso - March 21, 2012

Henry, Do you believe the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God Jesus taught is the same as what Paul taught after his conversion? God Bless Jerry Kelso

40. Henry - March 22, 2012

Jerry,

In my honest opinion perhaps we should set aside our differences on this topic or else we will only continue to proliferate an unfruitful discourse. Both myself and you come from differents sides when looking at these things and this is why we are in disagreement.

What is the church? The church is the body of Christ and the foundation was laid on Himself being the chief cornerstone and upon the Apostles and Prophets. Now the original Apostles were the first to receive the gospel and they are members of they are members of the church. Often times however people seem to lump these apostles with unrepentant Jews when they are they FOUNDING MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH. This is what scripture teaches. Now if Jesus tells these founding church members that He will come “after the tribulation of those days” (Matt 24:29-31) and that they are to WATCH for His coming who are we to argue with that? So by redefining the “elect” as people of Israel they have managed also to push the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the Church into this group of elect also – thus they are able to conclude then that whilst the church will be rapture pre-trib or mid trib those that are gathered after the tribulation of Matt 24:29 are of the nation of Israel alone. Of course this is a faulty position because the apostles are a part of the foundation of the church which is one body and Christ was speaking to them directly since it was they who posed the question to Him as to what would be the sign of His coming. The rest of the passage plays out several themes about watching for one knows not when the master of the house should come and to reward the good servant and the bad. In Luke 21:34-36 Jesus charged them not to allow themselves to overcharged with surfeiting, drunkeness and the cares of this life less the day of His coming should overtake them. Thus He commanded them to watch. Jesus was not speaking to unbelieving and unrepentant Jews here as some have supposed but to the CHURCH. Why then do we conclude that Jesus will “rapture” the church pre-trib or even mid-trib?

What is your definition of “tribulation” anyway. I mean what are the events that constitute this period of time and when does it begin and end?

41. Jerry kelso - March 23, 2012

Henry, I’ll answer your last question first. The tribulation is the last part of Daniel’s 70th week which is for 7 years. The first part of the tribulation is sometimes called the lesser tribulation. It is 3 and one half years long. The seals and trumpets are in the 1st half of the tribulation. The 1st 4 seals are the Antichrist coming to power known as the apocalypse. The 5th seal is the result of those martyers killed by his uprising. The 6th seal is signs and wonders as a prelude to the wrath of the lamb. The wrath of the lamb are through the trumpet judgement. The 1st 4 are natural disasters and the 5th and 6th are demons from the demons from the bottomless pit who are tormentors and the 6th trumpet has the demon horsemen who come up out of the Euphrates and have power to torment and kill men. The demon tormentors have about 5 months to torment and the demon horsemen have an hour and day, a month and a year to kill men. This is found in Revelation 9.
The first parenthetical is Revelation 7. This shows the two companies of Redeemed in the tribulation. The 144,000 who are raptured to Heaven in chapter 14. The tribulation saints are the other that go to heaven who have died. I have already discussed that the 7th seal is a Yom Kippur and goes in line with the prayers of the saints being offered before the trumpet judgements commence. Chapter 10 is the next parenthetical with the mighty angel with the book which is prior to the 7th trumpet because he prophesies in verse 7 about the mystery of God. This mystery of God is in the middle of the tribulation and it is not the coming of the Lord but it has to do with the accuser of the brethren being denied the right to go before God and accuse the brethren. This is shown in Revelation 12:10. Satan is hopping mad because he missed getting the man child who in fulfillment are the 144,000 and so he is kicked out of Heaven making him more mad and he can’t get the woman who goes into the wilderness and he has to go chasing the remnant in verse 18. Now if you think the man child is Jesus then you tell me how that can be when this is a future passage. The only way that you can give an answer is to say it is a historical context only. If you have another answer then feel free to let me know.
As far as the church founding members and the repentant jews being lumped together is that only true christians are part of the church.
Now you have a hermeneutical flaw in your thinking about Jesus telling his founding members that immediately after the tribulation he would come. He said this to them directly and this is true, but there is a difference in fulfillment. The church had not started at that time and they were asking about the end of time. The end of time has to do with the wheat and tares and the Jews being purged for their sins to come back into covenant. You can read Matthew 13, Daniel 9:24-27. The disciples will be in Heaven with the rest of the church. Even in Revelation 19:7-10 and you will see the church has made herself ready and she will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb right before she comes out of Heaven ready for war in vs 11-15.
Jesus knew the future about the Kingdom of Heaven because he offered it and the Jews rejected it. This is what one of the main reasons for the tribulation and the other is for the Lord to conqueor all the kingdoms of the world and make it his. Revelation 11:15.
Jesus did not tell the founding members that the church was going to be raptured immediately after the tribulation because he was speaking about the end of the time for he knew the jews would have to come back in their covenant to God as a nation so they can take their rightful place as the head of the nations. Read Isaiah 2:2-4.
Jesus spoke the parables to the backslidden jews and most of them were about their rejection of Christ. The prodigal son was to the jews but, they didn’t come back to God then, but, they will in the tribulation.
Let me ask you a question; Do you think the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God that John the Baptist and Jesus taught is the same message that the church is supposed to preach. Because if you do, this would be a good reason that you do not understand about the rapture of the church and this would also be another reason why you may not understand what the gospel of the kingdom in Matthew 24 means.
I would say one more thing. You say that Jesus comes in Revelation 6 and immediately after the tribulation from Matthew 24. Most preterists believe in post-trib rapture. Jack Van Impe believes the Lord comes back in Revelation 6 and he is pre-trib rapture.
There are people who believe that the trumpets are contained in the seals and the vials within the trumpets and happen alongside each other.
I know from conversing with you you definitely believe in comparing scripture and that is a good thing. The main thing with most people is missing the context. A good example is Jesus teaching under law are mistaken to be the message of the new covenant and they were not because he came to fulfill the law and the law wasn’t abolished til Calvary. Read Hebrews 9:16-17 and you will see that a testament is no good until the testator dies.
I say that to say that because we get alot of wrong understanding when context is wrong.
God Bless and have a good night. Jerry Kelso

Henry - March 23, 2012

Michelle,

I am not going to argue with you about this because this is unfruitful but the truth of the matter is that you do not fully understand the gospel which is why you make the claims you do.

The body of Christ is one body which is laid upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets and upon Christ the chief cornerstone. This is clearly stated in Eph 2:20-22. If you read from Eph 2:11 you will realise the purpose of Paul’s ministry – this was to bring the gospel to the Gentiles so that those of the Circumcision and those of the Uncircumcision could be reconciled into one body, Christ Jesus – the Church – thereby removing the enmity which was the law. The early apostles are not apart from the body but are in fact the founding members of the body of Christ. This is scriptural fact. There is only one Gospel unto salvation which was first revealed by Jesus to the original apostles and then revealed later to Paul. Paul did NOT claim to have a separate gospel aside from the original 12. However the mystery that was revealed to Paul was beforehand revealed to the Apostles and prophets and this is what Paul himself preached in Eph 3:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The mystery was revealed to Paul so that he could preach to the Gentiles that they too may become fellowheirs (with Israel) of THE SAME BODY, which is Jesus Christ – the Church. Here in Mark 4:10-11, Jesus said clearly to the disciples that it was given to them to know the mystery of the kingdom – this is why Paul affirmed that it was given to the apostles and prophets. Why on earth therefore should you insist that the mystery was made known only to Paul? NOT SO according to the scriptures.

10And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (Mk 4:10-11)

Concerning baptism, indeed Paul said he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. But does that mean that he didn’t preach on baptism? Let us look at another scenario concerning Jesus from John 4:

1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Note here that though the baptisms were attributed to Jesus, He Himself did not do the baptism. Compare this to 1 Cor 1:12-16

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Note here that though Paul did not baptized those of the Corinthian church (except the household of Stephanas) his disciples Cripspus and Gaius performed the actual baptisms in the same way Jesus’ disciples did in John 4 above. We are called to repent and be baptized, to teach that we do not need to do this is to teach ERROR (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4).

All who are in Christ (whether Jew or Gentile) will therefore reign with Him in His millennial kingdom. This is what the kingdom of God is about – it is the kingdom which was promised to David about His seed reigning forever and it is the New Jerusalem which comes down from God – where everyone who are in Christ will enter in. I have not missed anything, you are the one who keeps missing the point.

Acts 28
And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

42. Michele - March 23, 2012

In response to Jerry on March 21, 2012 at 1:06 am:

No problem, Jerry. We are so close to coming into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit, in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism…(Eph. 4; notice the one hope of our calling which is to inherit the heavenly places, not the earth and the one baptism which is not of water, because then we have two baptisms; Israel was called to water baptism) Contradictions between Peter and Paul’s gospel, hmmm….Why?

This will be long, but if I may respond to your points individually as to the questions and thoughts that come to mind as I read them. I don’t know how to bold, italicize, etc., so I’ll just put your comments in quotes and my response will be at the end of your comment:o)

1. “In the 1st 8-10 years of the church was basically Jewish and they proselyted gentiles. Acts 1:12-14; 2:5:”

I would ask, which church are you referring to? One of Satan’s deceptions is to make us think that there is only one gospel, one Church, one “program,” if you will, in the Bible and this is not the case, because God is working to reconcile the heaven and the earth. The first 8 chapters of Acts are the historical recordings of the actions of the Apostles of the kingdom Church, i.e., the little flock of Israel (believing remnant). These Apostles of the believing remnant of Israel (those who believed on Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel) were doing what the Lord had commanded them to do in the “great commission.” Raised up Israel was to bring the light of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, and Gentiles had to come through raised up Israel in order to obtain salvation. This is prophesied all throughout the OT. Today, we do not come through raised up Israel, because Israel has fallen for a time, but we come through the BOC, the Church, the pillar and ground of the truth. We are the stewards of the Mystery, the gospel of the grace of God which is that salvation has come apart from Israel and her works program and we are being made to inherit the heavenly places, not the earth, like Israel.

2. “Then Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean and Cornelius and his household, who were gentiles, got saved and baptized with the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is when the church of the jews and gentiles in one body officially began. Paul was given this truth by revelation. Acts 10.”

This is what I see the Scriptures bearing out through study by rightly dividing. The earthly kingdom saints who were saved through Israel’s kingdom gospel were not added unto the Church, the BOC. They were told to stay in Jerusalem, and stick to their gospel OF the cirucumcision; they were poor, because they had obeyed the Lord Jesus’ instructions,” selling all they had, which is why Paul took up collections to help the poor saints at Jerusalem. They were saints of the earthly kingdom Church, the little flock of Israel who were expecting to go through the tribulation and to see the Second Coming of Christ, to the earth, at the end of it. Their promises never included heaven, they never expected to go there (study it out and see if it so).

3. “The gospel of salvation must be defined. Peter and the apostles preached the death, burial, and resurrection message of Christ by believing in Jesus name. Read Acts 2:22-36; Acts 2:38-39. Paul agrees that our salvation is in the finished work of Jesus Christ, death, burial, and resurrection; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Paul says, there is no other gospel. So this is the true gospel for Peter, Paul, circumcision and uncircumcision (meaning jew and gentile people).

I agree with your statement, but the difference is what that truth accomplished for each group. For the believing remnant of Israel, if they believe and do works of righteousness, enduring unto the end, they receive the atonement at the Second Coming of Christ, and inherit the earth, ruling and reigning with Christ from Jerusalem. For the BOC, the one new man, we are justified and made righteous upon belief of Christ’s finished crosswork apart from any works, inheriting the heavenly places, ruling and reigning with Christ Jesus.

If you’ll recall in the gospels that the Lord Jesus only ministered unto a few Gentiles and in Matt. 15:24, he tells the Canaanite woman, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This is because He had come to establish Israel’s prophesied earthly kingdom that was promised to them, but he came unto his own, and his own received him not. Acts 10 is a record that God’s salvation would include the Gentiles at this time, through Israel‘s prophesied earthly kingdom “program.” They are looking for the fulfillment of their prophesied kingdom (Peter & the believing remnant). Acts 10:35: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. This is not the same good news that our Apostle Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, preached. For Paul gloried in the cross of Christ (for through it, salvation had come to ALL, freely, even God‘s enemies who didn‘t fear him and work righteouness), whereas Peter condemned the Jews for crucifying the Lord (Acts 2, 3). In Acts 3:16, Peter is preaching his name through faith in his name, not that we are justified freely by grace through faith and have forgiveness of ALL trespasses and are made the very righteouness of God in Christ upon faith in his work on the cross, (not just the facts of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 which is part of the gospel of the circumcision, as well as, part of the gospel of the uncircumcision). They are told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (they had to do works). We are called to believe that Jesus Christ, through his death, burial, and resurrection has already reconciled us to God and forgiven us of all our sins, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, all based upon the cross of Christ. Peter didn’t preach that they had forgiveness of all sins apart from works.

4. “Repentance is the act of obedience to receive salvation but, is not the exact gospel. The gospel is the finished work of Christ which is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, in which, we had no making to do in.”

I cannot agree with the first sentence of your comment, but amen, to the 2nd sentence. Our repentence, or change of mind, about our sins cannot come about until we trust Christ’s finished work on the cross and the good news about what that accomplished for us, and only Paul’s gospel reveals the truth about our salvation, justification and sanctification. What Paul was given by the Lord Jesus Christ, is what his resurrection did for us: He was raised again for our justification, we are ALREADY justified apart from any works of the flesh (i.e., water baptism, turning from sin or whatever traditions of men, i.e. religion, makes up). Obeying the gospel of our salvation is simply believing in the gospel of the grace of God, apart from any works of our own. The works we were created to walk in are the works that the Apostle Paul teaches us in the doctrine given to him by the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and it is God which worketh in us (by our believing His sound doctrine, i.e., the knowledge of the truth) to will and to do of his good pleasure…after salvation, not before (no turning from sin necessary to obtain salvation).

5. “Read Romans 4 and James 2. This will show how we are justified by faith and works.”

I enthusiastically read Romans 4 as being to me, for me, and about me as a member of the Church, the BOC. Are you one of the 12 tribes scattered abroad? Neither am I, so that doctrine is not written to me to practice in my faith (I can learn from it, but I am not called to obey it). So instead of having ONE faith, as I quoted from Eph. 4 in the beginning of my comment, if I follow what James says to the 12 tribes of Israel, I have 2 faiths that I will be following creating great confusion (read contradictions) for me. The only way I’m going to have unity of the Spirit: ONE Spirit, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, is by following the ONE Apostle of the Gentiles as he followed Christ. Christ Jesus raised up a new Apostle and gave him different information concerning his death, burial, and resurrection (and what it accomplished for us, the one new man) for our faith and practice. That is why it is termed the Mystery; it was hid in God before He saved Saul of Tarsus, and revealed it unto him.

It all boils down to 2 Tim. 2:15~Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. How do we cut straight the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation? Why does Paul say in Rom. 15:20: Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation….Then, in 1 Cor. 3:10-11: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Strange that Paul would say that he laid the foundation which is Jesus Christ. Hmm…another one of those contradictions, if Peter and the 11 are the ones who laid the foundation which is Jesus Christ. Be careful how we build upon the foundation that Paul laid is the warning, because it will be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ.

1 Cor. 3:12-15: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Why does the Lord have Paul go and tell the circumcision Apostles the gospel that he preached, if it was the same and they already knew it? Gal. 2:2-5: And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. The whole of Galatians is that they had fallen from the grace Paul had preached unto them, and were brought into bondage by false brethren unawares (Paul calls these false brethren, because they were teaching the law to the Galatians). Any part of the law for our salvation is a false gospel. Repent and be baptized is a part of the law (a performance-based acceptance system). Acts 2 is not our doctrine. Acts 1 -8 is the history of the rise and fall of Israel in their prophesied kingdom.

If anyone cares to look into why we are called to follow Paul as he followed Christ, here are some sites that will dispel the confusion of a false works-based gospel:

http://bibleanswersrightlydivided.blogspot.com/p/audio-messages.html

http://paulsthepattern.wordpress.com/

http://333wordsofgrace.wordpress.com/

If there is no difference in the way the 12 were called to follow Christ, then why does the Lord have a different Apostle for the Gentiles if the 12 Apostles of the earthly kingdom would suffice? Why raise up another Apostle if the Lord already had the 12 that were to go the the gentile nations? Why Paul? Because he was given “my gospel,” from the risen Lord Jesus Christ…HIS gospel. Why did the Lord have Paul delineate his message as “my gospel” and then have him tell, Jew and Gentile alike to follow me as I follow Christ? Valid questions, I say.

43. Jerry kelso - March 23, 2012

Michelle, You have some things right but, you are not seeing the total context.
1. I believe we agree Jesus taught the law because it was under that dispensation. Galatians 4:4 etc.
2. I believe Jesus was offering the millennial kingdom and you seem to think the same thing.
3. However, you are misunderstanding about gradual revelation of how things unfolded and building on a particular premise to prove your point.
4. Jeremiah 31:31 talks about the new covenant with Israel only. This is what Israel understood in conjunction with the Kingdom of Heaven. That is why they didn’t really understand about the gentiles in the same body and equal with them in the early church.
5. After Christ arose, Peter and the apostles weren’t under the mosaic law ethic. They have the law forever, but, then and now it is was and is under the New Covenant standards. Paul said in Ephesians the gentiles had no covenant and was grafted in. It was the judaizers who were always going after the apostles. The early part of Acts Peter and the rest were getting in trouble for the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ and telling the jewish leaders they were the ones that crucified the Lord.
6. You have to understand the old covenant was and was not a book of works. What I mean by that it was works because of the weakness of the commandment that made them work in their own strength. Romans says, the righteousness of the law is to live in them is the man that doeth them and there were 613 laws to keep. Works of the law could not save them. Romans 4:6-8. You have to understand the mechanics of the covenant. Everyone was and is saved by grace through faith but, in a different manner because of gradual revelation of which they will be judged. Romans 2:12-16. Ask a messianic jew who believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ today and he will tell you that what was abolished at the cross was the self righteous works. There are many misnomers of what was contained in the teachings of the Mosaic Law. For example, people think that there was works in the law but, no love because Paul said there was only wrath in the law in the book of Romans. But, this is preposterous when the greatest commandment was, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. One has to understand the proper perspective in each age.
7. You must remember there are some differences in the Jews and Gentiles according to culture. And there are some things that Peter was slow to get that Paul did but, it was not about the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
8. In Acts 1:6-7, Jesus told Peter, when they asked about the restoration of the kingdom, he said it’s not for them to know, only the Father knew. At the Day of Pentecost there were some signs of Joel’s prophecy that pertained to the kingdom beginning and the 3rd chapter Peter talks about the times of refreshing. So Peter and the circumcision still had the kingdom mentality in the back of their mind. That is why his books and the book of James are probably written that way. James is written to the 12 tribes and we have to understand it from that point of view but, not under the guise of the old covenant. You are making a premise of who it’s written to, and thus, not having to necessarily obey it. Wrong thinking!. Luther thought that James was a book of works and it is not. It deals with the spider and not the cobweb. It is about who we are and not what we do, For the christian it is a barometer of where we really stand in our relationship with Christ. What you see in the mirror of life is the real you that you cannot hide by mere professing Christ.
9. I agree with you about baptisms and etc but, you must understand that passages 2:38 are not Jews doing works to attain salvation. According to their culture they water baptized but, this baptism was a spiritual baptism, not a physical baptism. Paul said the Lord didn’t send him to baptize in 1 Corinthians 1:17.That’s another subject for another time.
10. Paul was given the revelation about the church of the one new man. Peter was first or right in about the same time period with the vision of the clean and unclean. You must remember that Paul was in Arabia for 14 year and had been given many revelations and when he first got saved he took some of his revelation that he had been given and talked it over to the apostles first to make sure they were on the same page because he wanted to make sure he had heard the right thing and that they were all in one accord.
The point is that just because Paul got the revealing of the mystery doesn’t mean he was necessarily the only one to get it first and spread it.
I believe in Israel’s earthy calling because that is what Jesus preached and he prophesied about according to Matthew 24 which deals with the 2nd Advent after the tribulation. The problem is that you are going to seed about the Kingdom message in the church age. You have to understand the mechanics of the Mosaic Law to understand Jesus teachings in his earthly ministry. And just because Jesus had a component of grace didn’t mean he taught the death, burial, and resurrection message. Also, you have to understand what the new covenant meant to a Jew who believes the law was not abolished because he has the law forever and a gentile who believes the law was abolished because it was of works. So, the point is that one has to understand the mechanics of each covenant in their proper perspective and how things were allocated before they know what it means for the church. We have to be careful of the time frame in which it was spoken. Gradual revelation unfolded sometimes rather slow. In the kingdom the Jews will turn to God and he will write the laws on their hearts. Hebrews 8:7-13 This is the same thing that happened at Calvary and this is why the Apostles had the heavenly calling. Those in the tribulation who survive will be of the earthly calling and the promise of Hebrews 8:7-13 will come true for the whole nation of Israel.
So just because the message of the Kingdom of Heaven is a message to Israel specifically doesn’t mean they didn’t have the message of the death, burial, and resurrection in the early church. In the tribulation the jews will go through some law mentality mindsets but, through persecution and the extinction of their nation closing in they will repent and God will write the laws on their heart which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
In conclusion; Jesus teaching under law was not the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in the kingdom teaching. In the early church, Christ had already died, and rose again so there could be no other gospel because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for sin. So let me say one more time; just because the Kingdom of Heaven message pertains to the Jewish nation and just because some of them was still looking and trying to figure out about the kingdom and it’s time frame, and just because there are some cultural differences like (water baptism) does not mean there was another gospel for salvation. This is what the Word says! Acts 4:2; the leaders were mad at them because they preached Jesus rose again because it wasn’t the law.
To your last question about God raising up Paul. Because of the jews stubborness in Acts 26 Paul went to the gentiles and Peter stayed more to the jews even though they still each ministered to gentiles. But, it was not because they each had a different gospel according to salvation. The Bible clearly states that there is no jew and gentile in one body spiritually. Paul mentioned my gospel in Romans 2 because he was given specifically the dispensation of the grace of God. Ephesians 3:2.
So the Kingdom of Heaven Message is not for the church overall but, the gospel of Christ is for Jew and Gentile alike that is physically in the church. God Bless!. Jerry Kelso

44. Henry - March 24, 2012

Jerry and Michelle,

As the moderator of this blog I think it is time to close comments on this particular topic. You have both said your piece and there is not much point in reposting the same response over and over again as this is simply eating up blog space. So please don’t feel offended if I say I am closing comments to this topic. The intention of this post was to debunk the pre-tribulation rapture but after 61 comments we have now gone way off base. Both you and Jerry have some things right but you both have some things wrong as well.

Michelle I would encourage you to study Paul some more along with other scriptures because Paul preached the one doctrine that Christ delivered to the original apostles. Works do not save in and of themselves but it is by grace you are saved through faith. However faith without works is DEAD.

Jerry, as far as I am concerned, Jesus tells us in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 of the timing of His coming – He says clearly that He will come “after the tribulation of those days”. Paul says in 1 Cor 15, that it is at His coming that the dead are raised and also in 1 Thess 4 that the dead are raised at His coming and caught up to meet Him and the living also will be caught up with them in the clouds. If you want to claim that the advent and His coming are not the same then you are free to believe that. Coming and advent are the same thing. So I would encourage you to study some more and some of these fanciful suppositions by John Nelson Darby and Hal Lindsay will disappear. No one wants to go through the tribulation so they ignore Christ’s own words and build a separate doctrine which puts the first resurrection either before the tribulation or midway into the tribulation in order to escape the worst bit. None of this lines up with Christ’s own words however and to claim that Jesus was not speaking to the church at the He warned the disciples takes away from rightly dividing the word of truth.

God bless.


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