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A Brief Perspective on Luke 21:36 and Rev 3:10 March 16, 2010

Posted by Henry in Eschatology & End Times.
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I have decided to put this post out to address those two verses which are used to support the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint, primarily because I do not want to be accused of running away from “key” evidence. On the face of it these two scriptures might imply that believers will somehow escape the prophesied events leading up Christ’s physical and bodily return earth. However these verses should not be read in isolation but be read in conjunction with the other verses of the passage. In Luke 21: 31 for example Jesus says, “when you see these things happening (the signs of the end), you know that the kingdom of God is near.” (Emphasis mine)

 If Luke 21:36 therefore meant that the church would not witness the signs why ever would Jesus say “when you see these things happening”. Here are the scriptures:

 Luke 21 

30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32“ I tell you the truth, this generationb will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 “ Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (constrast with Rev 6:15-17)

 Again looking at verse 36 Jesus admonished the Disciples (and the rest of the church) to watch. If Jesus’ return is “imminent”, and He can come at anytime without warning to rapture the church, why does He give this exhortation to watch? Clearly the exhortation to watch is in relation to the signs given and this is supported by verse 30 where Jesus related the sign of summer when the trees start to sprout leaves. It must be noted though that the admonition to watch is also in relation to the condition of ones heart and state of readiness to meet Christ as per verse 34. So then if the church were to “escape” these things by way of the rapture then there would not be a need for watching for these signs. Could the use of the word “escape” mean something different then? Perhaps a clue to the meaning can be gleaned from 1 Cor 10:13:

 1 Cor 10:

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 In this portion of scripture we learn that God will not suffer us to be temted above what we are able to bear and that with the temptation He will also make a way to escape that we may be able to bear it. Note here that though there is a way of “escape” this does not mean one will not witness the temptation but the “escape” allows us to be able to bear it. Could it be then that the same thing was meant in Luke 21:36, in that we will not be miraculously whisked away from the evils of the day but that the Lord will enable us to bear it by means of an “escape”? Bear in mind that the scripture of Luke 21 is saying “when you see these things” when it uses the term “escape”.

 So then in relation to Rev 3:10, could the term “keep you from the hour of trail” have a similar rendering to the use of the word “escape” in 1 Cor 10:13 above?

 Rev 3

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it.

 This verse of Rev 3 however should really be conflated with Rev 2:10 for further understanding:

 Rev 2:10

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 Is there any promise here that the church of Smyrna will miraculously escape these things by way of a rapture? No! Yet Jesus is saying to them to fear none of the evil that will befall them. Could it therefore mean the “escape” relate to Jesus aiding them to be able to bear what shall befall them?

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Comments»

1. Don McAllister - March 17, 2010

Hello Henry,

Your wrote:
In this portion of scripture we learn that God will not suffer us to be temted above what we are able to bear and that with the temptation He will also make a way to escape that we may be able to bear it. Note here that though there is a way of “escape” this does not mean one will not witness the temptation but the “escape” allows us to be able to bear it. Could it be then that the same thing was meant in Luke 21:36, in that we will not be miraculously whisked away from the evils of the day but that the Lord will enable us to bear it by means of an “escape”? Bear in mind that the scripture of Luke 21 is saying “when you see these things” when it uses the term “escape”.

Response:
There is a big difference between God helping us escape common temption, compared to escaping his wrath, which are the events that will affect the entire world. The fact is, you have still not addressed the issue of escaping all of those events leading up to the return of Christ and it can’t be accomplished by remaining on the earth.

“Pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen.”

The only way that one could escape that wrath is to not be here! There are some who will say “The beast making war and conquering the staints is not the wrath of God.” Just for the sake of argument, God’s wrath will be overshadowing that, that is, while the beast is doing his thing, God is pouring out his wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowls.

This is very simple.

1. We are currently in the church period.

2. The resurrection and catching away is yet to be fulfilled.

3. Seven years have been established by Daniel leading up to the end that is still future.

4. The wrath of God must still take place during that seven years.

5. The seals, trumpets and bowls are all specified as being the wrath of God. (Rev. 6:16; 11:18; 15:1,7),

6. We are not appointed unto that wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes. 1:10, 5:9).

7. Jesus returning to set up his millennial kingdom is yet to come, which brings and end to human government and the establishment of his.

So the question is, where does his wrath start? For prior to it being initiated, we must be gone. The fact is that, the wrath of God blocks the way leading up to the Lord’s return.

I’ve seen people try to specify that the seven bowls are only to be considerd as the wrath, but that is nonsense. The information on the bowls themselves state that they are not the only wrath:

“I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last because with them God’s wrath is completed.”

If the bowls are the seven “last” plagues, then their must be plagues prior to them. For if they are last, then other wrath must take place before them. Also, since it is stated that the bowls “complete” God’s wrath, this infers that there was wrath that was started before the bowls, which complete it.

Paul outlined the day of Lord and identified the resurrection and catching away as being the first phase of that time period (1 Thes.4:13-18; 5:1-2)

Immediately following the resurrection and catching away is the wrath that follows (1 Thes. 5:3-10).

“While people are saying ” ‘Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brothers…….

The statement right after “and they will not escape,” which says “But you brothers” immediately infers the opposite of not escaping, that is, they will not escape, but you brothers will.

The people that Jesus are speaking to during that time are saints “hagios” and not the church. The word “Ekklesia” translated “church” is missing after the end of chapter 3 and never used again within the narrative. There is a reason for this and that is that the church is gone.

The only question is, where does the wrath of God begin in relation to the seven years leading up to the Lord’s return to establish his kingdom? Wherever that is, we must be gone before his wrath begins.

2. Henry - March 17, 2010

Hello Don,

The problem with what you are saying is that you assume that the events preceding Christs return is God’s wrath. The opening of the 7th Seal clearly tells us when the wrath of God begins and indeed since the church isn’t appointed unto wrath the Church is taken out of the way at the 6th Seal. That much is clear from scripture. The escape that Luke 21 mentions therefore could not mean a rapture before the events because Jesus makes it clear that the Disciples and by extention the church would witness the signs marking His coming. Clearly if the church was taken out of the way they would not see these things now would they?

But what do we learn from the church at Smyrna in Rev 2? Jesus had no fault with this church yet here is what Jesus said would happen to them:

Rev 2
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Does Jesus not say here that this church will have tribulation? So if this tribulation was God’s wrath why is this church not promised an escape? Since the church isn’t appointed unto wrath then clearly this is not God’s wrath in terms of the final judgement.

Could you please show me where the church is in Rev 7? If it is not the group that went through tribulation where is the church?

3. Henry - March 18, 2010

Greetings Don,

I just wanted to add some few further points for you to consider. From conversing with you I have gleaned that you believe that God’s wrath begins from the 1st Seal or rather that it coincides with the Great Tribulation. This seems to be the main point of your argument in support of the pre-tribulation position. However, the scriptures seems to suggest otherwise. Lets look at some of the scriptures which speaks about the day of the Lord and His wrath.

Zeph 1
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Isa 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: (This is a quote from the Prophet Joel)

Note that this “day of the Lord” is the same that has been prophesied of by the prophets of old some of whom I have quoted above. Note also that this day is the same “day of the Lord” which Paul spoke of in 1 Thess 5:2, when he said it will come like a thief in the night. So then the Prophet Joel makes it clear that the day of the Lord comes after the sun is turned to darkness and the moon to blood. So then if the day of the Lord, which is a day of wrath (as per the other prophets) comes after the sun turning into darkness etc, then the events before this day, eg the tribulation, cannot be considered as part of the day of the Lord and consequently God’s wrath, can they?

You will find that these prophesies are linear to what John spoke of at the opening of the 6th seal in Rev 6. The church then is taken out of the way at the 6th seal then the wrath of God is poured out which then confirms what Paul said that the Church (or the elect) isn’t appointed to wrath. So then at this 6th seal we find that the elect are gathered if we read from Rev 7:1. It is interesting to note that during the sealing process only 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel were sealed. No one else were sealed. Why? I believe it is because the church already had the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22). John stated the number of them that were sealed then he said that after this he beheld a multitude of every kindred, tribe and tongue. Thus we see only 2 groups of people gathered from earth, those of the tribe of Israel and then the great multitude. Why this order? Scripture says that salvation is of the Jew first and then the Greek (or the Gentiles), Rom 1:16.

So there we have it my friend. The day of the Lord, which is the day of wrath comes after the sun and moon are darkened and which in turn occurs after the tribulation of those days. It is on this day that the elect are gathered and as we see from the opening of the 7th seal, the wrath of God begins to be poured out on those that are left on the earth. Tribulation is not exclusive to the time of the anti-christ alone and that much will be clear if we conflate Matt 24 with Luke 21. Though they speak the same prophesy, Matthews tribulation appears to be future yet Luke’s “distress” seems to be “immediate” to the time of the destruction of the temple. But if we remember the scripture which says “this generation shall not pass until all these things have been fulfilled” then we will see that events are appointed to “this generation” so can occur at any time throughout. Again 1 Cor 10:11 makes it clear that it is upon “us” (the church age generation) that the end of the world is come upon.

4. Henry - March 19, 2010

Dear Readers,

I just want to point out something which is not only relevant to this post but to the interpretation of all scriptures. Sometimes, a thing is hidden from view even though it is in plain sight. With this in mind I will show that Luke 21:36 and Rev 3:10 are very simple to interpret.

Firstly Luke 21:36 says:
36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape ALL that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

The answer is right there in the said verse highlighted in bold. The “all that is about to happen” begins from verse 7 and includes the destruction of the temple and the resulting desolation etc. If “escape” really meant a “rapture” then the rapture would have taken place between 33 and 70 A.D. before the destruction of the temple and only the Disciples and the church that existed at that time could have benefited from it. In my review of the Olivet Discourse I stated that Jesus spoke to the Disciples as if they could expect His return in their life time and that is because He didn’t know when He would return. So then He related everything from the destruction of the temple through to the tribulation of the last days as the signs that would precede His coming. So then the destruction of temple and the scattering of the Jews was the first thing that “was about to happen”. It is clear then that only the Disciples an the church at that time would be able to “escape” all that was about to happen. It should become obvious then that Luke 21:36 cannot in no way support a pre-tribulation rapture position.

Going on to Rev 3:10, the scriptures say:

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it.

Once again the answer to the riddle is in plain sight and it is so simple yet we do not see it. Note that John is writing individually to the 7 churches. If Rev 3:10 was about a pre-tribulation rapture (which pre-tribbers say is not His coming) why does Jesus say here “I am coming soon”. Why write to a church to tell them that the Lord said, “I am coming soon” if that church would be raptured before Jesus comes? Note that pre-tribbers say that at the time of the rapture Jesus comes in the clouds so He doesn’t actually come because people on earth will not be able to see Him. But what does Rev 1:7:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

I leave you with the below scripture to ponder:
2 Thess 1
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

5. wabd - March 21, 2010

Henry,

You are probably one of the few people that I know that have focused a lot of attention on the Olivet Discourse as it is written in the Gospel of Matthew. I have a question to ask and would appreciate your input.

(Mat 24:7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. (24:8) But all these things are the beginning of travail.

(Mar 13:8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be earthquakes in divers places; there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail.

(Luk 21:9) And when ye shall hear of wars and tumults, be not terrified: for these things must needs come to pass first; but the end is not immediately. (21:10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; (21:11) and there shall be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences; and there shall be terrors and great signs from heaven.

In recent times we see there are definite increases in earthquakes in diverse or various places – this year so far Haiti had a 7.0, Chile a 8.8 and China a 8.6, as well in the last century or so there have been earthquakes in various places. But none of these seem to fit (Mat 24:22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

If we were to omit the word ‘divers’ and say ‘there would be earthquakes’ and examine what has been happening for centuries, the meaning is unchanged. Another thing is Luke’s Gospel which has an additional clause “and there shall be terrors and great signs from heaven.” As well all three Gospels also spoke of famines, while Luke has famines and pestilences.

When we look at what is happening in the post-earthquake period there is international aid going out to countries hit by earthquakes and opportunities for famines and pestilences are reduced or completely prevented in some cases. Neither is there “terrors and great signs from heaven,” accompanying these quakes.

Upon searching other prophetic texts for earthquakes I found that Rev 6: 12-14 had both a great earthquake as well as terrors and great signs from heaven, (Rev 6:12) And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (6:13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.
(6:14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Bear with me!

It seems as though that the earthquakes in divers places would be accompanied by terrors and great signs from heaven. If we keep on reading Revelations there are events leading up to and proving to be heavenly terrors and great signs as well there is a star called Wormwood that befits as a catalyst for earthquakes on a global scale which would restrict international aid as all countries would have their own disasters to deal with and this would definitely bring on famines and pestilences.

(Rev 8:7) And the first sounded, and there followed hail and fire, mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. (8:8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; (8:9) and there died the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, even they that had life; and the third part of the ships was destroyed. (8:10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell from heaven a great star, burning as a torch, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of the waters; (8:11) and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. (8:12) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner.

Finally, my question is, could it be possible that scriptures regarding earthquakes in divers places is really ‘earthquakes in every place’ at the same time caused when the the first through fourth trumpets are blown and the star Wormwood is the catalyst?

Many thanks for your input….

6. Henry - March 22, 2010

Wabd,

In answer to your question let me say first of all that the events that are set to happen in Revelations 8 (the 7th seal) will occur after Jesus comes and takes the elect out of the way at the opening of the 6th seal in Rev 6:12. Therefore the events that precedes Christ coming, i.e., earthquakes in divers places, famines and pestilences etc, should not be confused with Revelations 8 which is where the 7th seal is opened. The star Wormwood therefore cannot be the catalyst for the events leading up to Christ’s return because that star falls after Christ comes and gathers the elect.

Please note that wormwood is a literal plant that is poisonous and has a bitter taste and the star when it falls will have the same effect as this wormwood plant and causes most of the water on earth to be bitter.

(Update) Certainly when we look at parallel translations of the Bible the word divers is rendered “many” or “various”.

What I would like to know though is what was the rationale for you thinking that the star Wormwood would be a catalyst to the events Christ said would precede His coming?

7. wabd - March 22, 2010

Henry,

First thank you for your response. I did not know of the plant called wormwood.

To answer your question, I think rests on two details: (1) the clause in Luke 21:11 – ‘and there shall be terrors and great signs from heaven,’ and (2) the effects that a star may have on the earth as it approaches.

Again, thanks for your input, it has laid to rest some concerns that I had.

In His Grace,

Wesley
(My name)

8. wabd - March 23, 2010

Henry,

In your response to my question you stated, “first of all that the events that are set to happen in Revelations 8 (the 7th seal) will occur after Jesus comes and takes the elect out of the way at the opening of the 6th seal in Rev 6:12.”

Does this mean that Christ is yet to come a third time?

Does He come to earth or are the elect caught up to meet Him in the air?

Thanks,

Wesley

9. Henry - March 23, 2010

Wesley,

Please note that the events of Matthew 24:29-31 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelations 6 are the one and the same event. Lets look at the verses in question and compare them:

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Note the pertinent verses in bold speaks of the one and same event. So which “coming” do you think this is? Is this before the 1000 year reign or after the 1000 year reign?

10. wabd - March 23, 2010

Henry,

Thanks for your response.

What I am unclear about is the timing of the other series of judgments. We know that the 7th seal starts the 7 trumpet judgments, which are:

1. Hail, fire, blood
2. Seas are blood
3. Fresh water turns bitter
4. Sun, moon & stars light diminish
5. First woe – locusts
6. Second woe – 4 angels loosed
7. Third woe – Satan is thrown down

To answer your question, it would be prior to the millennial kingdom. When does the trumpet judgment take place? We know at mid-trib the covenant is broken and the abomination of desolation is set up. If the elect are gathered at the 6th seal, then the trumpet judgment by your interpretation becomes the wrath along with the bowl judgments, which are:

1. Noisome and grievous sores
2. Seas are blood
3. Rivers are blood
4. Sun scorches men
5. Beast’s kingdom darkened
6. Euphrates dries up
7. It is done

We also know that the bowl judgments will take place in the second half of the 7 year tribulation period. But when does peace and safety and life as it was in the days of Noah and Lot take place? The seven seals, we know take place in the first half of the 7 year tribulation period, and they are:

1. The Antichrist comes to power
2. World War III
3. Famine
4. Pestilence & Death
5. Saints are martyred
6. World disasters
7. The trumpet judgments unleashed

From what you are saying, the elect will be gathered in the midst of world disasters, so who are the saints that are martyred at the opening of the 5th seal? I see from the scriptures you cited (Matt 24: 29-31 & Rev 6: 12-17) the similarities. We also have the 144,000 sealed bond servants in the first half along with the two witnesses that saw their end before mid-trib. Is the 144,000 part of the elect gathered or are they the elect that are gathered?

Wesley

11. Henry - March 24, 2010

Hi Wesley,

You said:

“We know at mid-trib the covenant is broken and the abomination of desolation is set up. If the elect are gathered at the 6th seal, then the trumpet judgment by your interpretation becomes the wrath along with the bowl judgments, which are:”

What I will say here is that there is no need for me to interpret anything as the scriptures are clear. The first 5 seals occur before Christ comes. Christ comes at the 6th seal and gathers the elect. At the 7th seal the wrath of God begins to be poured out. The trumpet and/or vial judgements are being poured out from the opening of the 7th seal onwards.

We have to be careful when reading Revelations because the book is not in chronological order from start to finish. Some events that are mentioned in later chapters do occur before events in earlier chapters and Chapter 13 is a classic example as those events occur before the opening of the 6th seal.

The elect is not just the 144,000 but it includes them as well as the church. Don’t forget there are also elect angels. Remember the scripture says that the elect are gathered from one end of heaven to the other.

The saints that are being martyred at the 5th seal are church saints who are being killed by the anti-christ beast system. This is necessarily the case because the 5th seal is the seal preceding the 6th when Jesus comes and we know from Rev 13 that the beast is in existence leading up to Christ’s coming and the second beast following the first will caused all those who will not worship the first beast to be killed.

12. Henry - March 24, 2010

Wesley,

Further to my last response I would like you to please provide scriptures and verses to the following quote:

“We also know that the bowl judgments will take place in the second half of the 7 year tribulation period. But when does peace and safety and life as it was in the days of Noah and Lot take place? The seven seals, we know take place in the first half of the 7 year tribulation period, and they are:”

Please do remember that Jesus said in Matthew 24 “immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened etc” I would therefore appreciate the scriptures from which you drew the above conclusions.

Again I believe the word “elect” is used as opposed to church because there are people who will earn salvation who died before the New Covenant. I am “guessing” here but in all probability the 144,000 existed before the New Covenant. Why I say this? Since the establishment of the New Covenant there is no name under heaven by which men can be saved save the name of Jesus and that includes Jews and Gentiles. Some people teach however that the Jews don’t need to come to Christ to be saved but if that were true then we have a problem with scriptures.

Betty - March 27, 2010

Could it be that we are to endure the deceptions of the anti Christ who will come first and may will believe he is the Lord?

Betty - March 27, 2010

The way I understand it is that the 6th trump is about satan (the anti christ) will deceive many as they believe he is the Christ. In Genesis, God tell satan that enmity will be put between his seed and the woman. Cain is the son of satan and the kenites are the lineage that brings forth the anti christ, who comes first. The mark of the beast is the brain (thinking ) in the forehead. Those who believe in the false christ will be greatly deceived.The seventh trump is when the Lord Jesus returns.

Betty - March 27, 2010

I undertand that the 6th seal is the abominator who will try to deceive the world,in Jesusalem as he comes speaking peace and many will believe his lies. The choice is ours to believe in the false christ or our true Christ. Just as the lineage of Christ Jesus came from Adams’ lineage, so, too, the anti christ lineage comes from Cain, the first murderer. Beware of the anti christ.

Henry - March 28, 2010

Betty,
Welcome to the discourse. However, you make some statements there that cannot be supported Biblically. Scripture tells us that Adam and Eve bore Cain and Able so I find it remarkable that you should state that Cain is the son of satan. There is no Biblical basis to conclude that the anti-christ will come from the linage of Cain so you need to be careful what you believe particularly when there is no sound Biblical basis for this.

13. Henry - March 28, 2010

Betty,

Isn’t Adam the father of Cain? Please be careful when you cling on to such beliefs because scripturally you have no basis for such conclusions. Again scripture makes it clear that it is at the opening of the 6th seal that believers will see the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens yet you have decided to believe otherwise. Please stick to what scriptures say otherwise you will be deceived.

14. Todd Dennis - April 7, 2010

The kingdom can be near now, just as it was then.

Jesus told the young man “you are not FAR from the kingdom”

He wasn’t referring to chronology but distance.

Even today, many are not far from the kingdom.

15. Bea K. - April 13, 2011

I want to thank every who has posted here (and on other forums about the rapture theories), it’s been an interesting read, but sadly it seems ‘no one’ has been able to give a ‘valid’ response to Luke 21:36 ‘yet’.

Don McAllister truth be told, your explaination sounds the most valid to me, as I’ve also noticed that “the church” is not mentioned again until “after Christ’s return”, which really makes me wonder.

I really don’t think that anyone on this planet can give a clear or right interpretation to this scripture, and I’ve been asking myself if God would really allow those who know, love, and follow Him with all their hearts and mind to be deceived by the antichrist and follow satan (although, look what the Apostles endured to the end, so maybe we will have to do the same)? Will He stand by and let those who love the Father and the Son, be beheaded as our ultimate act of love for both of them, or will he give us “a way of escape” (even if it’s not via the rapture)?

Once again, in my case ‘much confusion’ abounds, so I’ve decided to stop listening to and reading these posts, and if by chance we must go through all the horrible and destructive actions that are coming, cling to God and Jesus with everything in me and ask them to hold on to me as well. God help and have mercy on us ALL.

16. Henry - April 14, 2011

Bea K,
Thanks for stopping by. I think you need to look at the realities of scripture rather than to apply your own rationale. I think this is the mistake many people apply which is why they end up with a pre-trib rapture position and then try to make scripture fit that position.

Allow me to therefore clarify a few points you raised. You stated:

“and I’ve been asking myself if God would really allow those who know, love, and follow Him with all their hearts and mind to be deceived by the antichrist and follow satan”

Certainly God would not allow His people to be deceived by the antichrist – it is only those whose names are not written in the Book of Life. But does scripture not state clearly that the Beast shall make war with the Saints and shall overcome them? You have already pointed out that the early Apostles suffered many evils – some were crucified, slain by the sword/beheaded and stoned to death – so why did God not allow them to escape those evils?

Perhaps you could look at more recent history to see what Christians went through at the hands of the Roman church particularly in the Middle Ages (see the Papal Inquisitions). You will note that any church that separated from Catholic doctrine (Protestants) were persecuted for heresy – they were burnt at the stake, beheaded, raped, tortured etc by the Roman church. Ask yourself why did Luke 21:36 not apply in their cases?

hopeful_watcher - August 23, 2011

Bea, you wrote, “or will he give us “a way of escape” (even if it’s not via the rapture)?”

You nail it here. The bread and wine of the last supper was given as a PASSOVER meal. What is a passover but a way to escape God’s wrath. We must study Exodus and then we see the atonement of blood (in our case through the blood of Christ) makes us worthy to escape. Also notice the Israelites were subject to pharoah but escaped the plagues. Likewise, when we wash ourselves in the blood of Christ we will be subject to the Luciferian agenda, i.e. the first part of the tribulation, but will be free of God’s wrath, i.e. the second half of the tribulation.

17. Kick in the Pants - June 3, 2012

All this endless back and forth reminds me of two old men arguing over the color of a gnat’s wings. They both get so angry at each other’s stubborn opinions they end up killing each other. Meanwhile, the gnat flies away, oblivious.

Watch your selves. Overcome your own sins. You are SAVED through grace from the wrath to come. Now start acting like its true. Doesn’t Satan enjoy diverting us away from THAT particular subject.

Pretty simple.

18. Jerry kelso - June 8, 2012

Kick in the Pants, You are right about not arguing for arguments sake and overcoming and saved through grace from the wrath to come.
Whether it’s pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib; being wrong on this subject doesn’t necessarily mean someone is a false prophet or someone’s salvation is going to be forfeited. In the long run it can show whether or not we are rightly dividing the word of truth which is most important.
The objection here is whether the wrath to come will cover the whole tribulation or part of it or just the Day of the Lord and whether or not that constitutes the church being in any part of the tribulation.
According to Timothy, if we suffer we shall reign. We are in rulership training now in which God is dealing with the body of Christ. The tribulation is to bring the Jewish people back into covenant with God as a nation.
This doesn’t mean that there is not a possibility for the Church to go through the tribulation, but, it is not God’s purpose for the Church to go through it, but, the Jews. There will be gentiles saved in the tribulation.
Context of books of the Bible and chapters of the Bible and historical context and other hermeneutical views are often ignored or misconstrued.
Just as there are scripture that show God protecting those who still went through tribulation; you can show others that God kept from going through certain periods of trials.
It is true that we don’t need arguments but, we need to reason the scriptures and learn how to rightly divide the word so we can be better examples and witnesses for Christ. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

19. Tj Maiorano - August 15, 2012

Who wouldn’t prefer the Pre-Trib to escape all hell breaking loose? But to me that’s just wishful thinking. The Pre-Wrath escape artists will not be spiritually prepared to face impending hell on earth, thinking themselves supposedly exempt. What is tragic will be their misguided belief, fear and possible despair could be a catalyst for the great falling away of many. This is why i believe that a secret rapture is not a strong or even smart scriptural position.To me this defies logic and basic common sense..We must all be willing to confess who is truly Lord, and be willing to suffer just like the master did for us at Calvary, Only then would we be counted worthy of escaping the flames of eternal death (which without the Lord we’d all be destined). Do not fear for Jesus brings his reward with him. He loves his bride and his long awaited marriage with us is assured. Whether Martyred or not,we will be justly rewarded for our perseverance. Our Lord Jesus won’t give us any more than we can handle anyway. Christ wants to see who’s truly his loyal disciples,and who truly believes in his saving grace. Hey we’re only appointed once to die and thanks be to God we shall never die again!.

Good news…We win at the end…..Praise Jesus! .

20. Henry - August 16, 2012

TJ Maiorano,

Well said. The pre-trib rapture is one of the greatest deceptions of the church age. The problem with the pre-trib rapture position is that some argue that it is not detrimental to one’s faith but if they can’t rightly divide the word on this point then how will they discern much more detrimental doctrines?

21. Hollie - January 17, 2014

Hello Henry,

Thanks for starting this discussion. I love all the study believers put into this. I was just looking for what “the son of man”, is meaning in this verse.
Because Jesus is the Son of God and man. But, couldn’t son of man be just that. Son of man also means humans doesn’t it? Stand before the son of man. Could that mean pray to be able to stand “not fall or die” before the son of man or “humans”. Because we will be persecuted by sons of men “humans”.
Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. “Fall meaning, they won’t stand.” I want the Holy Spirits discernment on this.
Also, isn’t it so wonderful that Jesus is already giving us instructions on how to “intercede” during that time. I’m already praying for protection for my family and the body “the church”. And that we stand firm in Jesus and still be able be filled daily and to pour our lives out to reach the harvest
And the big thing is to know understand God. And share this truth with others.
Psalms 67 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine on us—
2 so that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.

3 May the peoples praise you, God;
may all the peoples praise you.
4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples with equity
and guide the nations of the earth.
5 May the peoples praise you, God;
may all the peoples praise you.

6 The land yields its harvest;
God, our God, blesses us.
7 May God bless us still,
so that all the ends of the earth will fear him.

I’ve been lead by the Spirit to pray this over the body and the harvest. Will you join me in this? I truly believe Jesus is coming soon. And we do need to be on watch. Open our eye and hears to your Spirit sweet voice. And live selflessly, and always be willing and able to do your will.

22. Henry - January 23, 2014

Hello Hollie,
Sorry for taking so long to reply. Jesus is sometimes called the “Son of man” as well as “Son of God” as He is both so I am not sure if there is any special meaning when used in this chapter of Luke.

I think when Jesus says pray that you will be able to stand I think again this is referring to us being ready to receive Him. Another rendering could be to pray that we will be able to be counted worthy to face Him. Recall in Revelations 6 and 7 people fled and tried to hide from the face of Him who sat on the throne and wrath of the Lamb – these people are unbelievers who cannot stand before God at the day of judgement – only true believers will be able to. Indeed many things will happen to Christians leading up to the time of the end and we need to be steadfast in the faith.

I am happy to join with you in your prayer.


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