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The heresy of the Heaven’s Gate cult September 21, 2011

Posted by Henry in False Doctrines.
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I first encountered the heavens gate cult when I read a news article about how the brother of the Star Trek actress Nichelle Nichol’s (who played Lieutenant Uhura in the original series) committed suicide in 1997 in what was a mass suicide conducted by the Heaven’s Gate group to coincide with the passing of Hales Comet by the earth. It was believed by those who were involved that the comet would take their souls to heaven. From a Christian point of view this of course is preposterous but what should be more surprising is the fact that this group claim also to be followers of Christ and cloak their beliefs in scripture. I personally have not studied the beliefs of this group extensively however from what I have learnt about them I know enough to designate them as a cult which promotes false doctrines.

 

Our Lord Jesus Christ warns us many times in His word that we should beware of false christs and false teachers who if it were possible would deceive the very elect. I fear that those who are involved with the heaven’s gate group are both deceiving and being deceived. For instance, where is it written in scripture that believers should commit suicide in order to attain to heaven or even that space objects such as comets would come to take our souls to heaven so that we should take our own lives to gain entry such a vehicle? Anyone who believes this must necessarily believe a different gospel than that written in the Bible. However, as Paul admonishes us we should test every spirit to see if they are of God, in like fashion as the Bereans who examined all that Paul had taught them against the word to see if those things that Paul claimed were so. The adherents of the heaven’s gate group would do well to study the scriptures daily to see if the teachings they received lined up with the Word of God.

 

Jesus Christ came into this world to die for our sins so that through Him – by believing in Him and His gospel message we might be saved and inherit eternal life. Paul writing to Titus said:

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rather than committing suicide to accelerate our journey to heaven we are to earnestly continue in the blessed hope, waiting for the appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Moreover, when we die though we be in Christ we do not instantly go to heaven. Rather we remain asleep until the great and terrible day of the Lord when Jesus shall descend from heaven to gather the dead and the living who are in Him to Himself. See the following verses:

 

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:16-18)

 

The heaven’s gate group however believes there is actually a different way to get to heaven – mass suicide. To them what is written here in the Word is not true but rather what their teachers tell them is what they believe to be the truth. However you cannot have it both ways – it is either you believe the Word of God as written in the Bible or you make it up as you go along or follow those who make it up as they go along.

 

The heaven’s gate group believes in two characters called Ti and Do who they claim are Jesus and God and at the same time the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. The first question we need to ask here is whether God can send witnesses who contradict His very word. Let us first of all briefly examine whether these two characters could actually be God and Jesus. Jesus came into this world a messenger of the Father to bring good news to the lost. Jesus however told us that He is going back but will come again to gather those that are His to himself (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12). Jesus knew however that when He left many false Christ would arise after Him to lead the people astray so He gave the desciples the signs to look for of His coming so that we are not deceived. We read for example:

 

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt 24:24-27)

 

In spite of these clear warnings given by Jesus Himself that we should not go after another who is already on earth and claiming to be Him but rather to look for His appearing as the lighting flashes from East to West the heaven’s gate group rejects these very words. They claim that Jesus does not need to appear in this way but that His coming is phased and it is up to us to be able to recognize if when he is here. To reject Jesus’ words here and to say that Ti and Do are God and Jesus incarnate is nothing but a lie in the face of the Bible. Whom do we trust? The Bible, the revealed word of God or do we trust another who contradicts this very word?

 

Could these two therefore be the Two Witnesses of God – not if they contradict the very word of God they cannot be. More importantly they do not fit into neither the prophesy nor the criteria to fulfill the prophesy surrounding the ministry of the Two Witnesses. The Bible makes clear to us that the Two Witnesses complete their ministry during the opening of the 7th Seal at a time when the 5th angel (of the seven having the seven trumpets and the last seven plagues to judge the earth) sounded. These events occur after the 6th seal when the heavens were opened and when Jesus gathers those that are His to Himself. We know this because in Revelations 9 the 5th angel sounded and released the angel of the bottomless pit which I believe is the same beast of the bottomless bit which made war with the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 and killed them following the end of their ministry. For the heaven’s gate group to therefore claim that the two witnesses have already fulfilled their ministry is again another lie in the face of scripture.

 

This has not been a detailed study on the heaven’s gate group nor was it intended to be but I believe I have left the reader in no doubt about the deceptive nature of the group. Their purpose is clearly not to fulfill the mission of Christ even though they may have been deceived into thinking that it is. I only pray that those who encounter them will stay clear of them and those who remain in the group may see the light of Christ and be awakened out of their deception.

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Comments»

1. Hopeful_watcher - September 21, 2011

Bravo. There is nothing to add. Nothing to dispute. I assume a rebuttal will be forth coming, but I have no desire to read it.

2. Marianne Lordi - September 22, 2011

Hi Henry, you gave a good word. Unfortunately those deceived will continue to argue against the truth but so be it.

I do however have one point that I would like to bring up. You said that those who die will remain asleep until Christ coming. If that were so, then how do you reconcile Christ in the garden when Elijah and Moses showed up? Also, the bible does tell us absent from the body- present with the Lord! I think that Scripture you refer to means that those who have died, their bodies will resurrect and they will receive new ones that are not corrupt as shall we who are in Christ shall do also. Those believers who die now are in spirit form. So at that day when Christ calls us, all believers shall receive their new bodies that we will have evermore in heaven.

sawyer - September 22, 2011

I expect Henry will block my comments as He fears hearing more truth, but I will be posting this on my blog for all to see as there are many that talk like you all who think you are so deserving of God’s kingdom just because you talk about scriptures. Talk about illusion. Why is it that those actually with Jesus had to give so much and you don’t.

It’s because you have been programmed to confuse those who simply “believed in Jesus” before they died 2000 years ago and those who actually became disciples – active students (though I’m using a modern term with a plain to understand definition rather than the one filled with religious trappings). You won’t like this but a disciple has a much greater measure to live up to. As Jesus said,

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

3. sawyer - September 22, 2011

Henry is demonstrating a big part of why you all fear a head to head scriptural (what can be evidenced as having been what Jesus said and did) debate. You all have been fooled by Paul. I have talked about this before and you were not able to hear me. Here is another very, very strong scriptural EVIDENCE as to how those who were actual physical disciples of Jesus (as opposed to believers, the difference being huge, as disciples had to leave everything behind, spouse, children, lands, homes, and even their own life to be a disciple):

Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

They didn’t trust him. They were afraid of him. Why. Well because he was murdering them if not directly by his hand, by his overseeing and command, as evidenced by Saul’s own testimony and the events in the stoning of Stephen. Why would Jesus want to work with someone who was murdering those that believed in him? Why would Jesus blind him into submission. Jesus did not even blind or otherwise strike out at anyone. Jesus did not need followers and certainly not followers that hated him. And further more this blinding light had a voice that said “I am Jesus whom you persecute”. Well first off, there is no record that Saul ever met or saw Jesus so how could he be persecuting him. Secondly, Jesus himself said not to believe anyone that comes “in my name saying they are the Christ” adn what does this voice say. “I am Jesus”. Was not the name Jesus used Jesus? This voice was Lucifer, the “angel of light” looking to trick would be believers and thus was the first major surfacing of the Anti Christ and today 99% of the organized churches honor Paul and quote Paul and look to what Paul said. Why is that? Well, Paul, however well intended didn’t know Jesus and only knew about Jesus from what others said, so he built a following on the coattails of Jesus and got many to look to him for all the answers and direction.

So is what Jesus said not good enough for you all? Go ahead quote Paul. See if Paul can save you. It’s EASY to assume you are in Jesus favour.

4. sawyer - September 22, 2011

Here is my response to your last entry in the last post before you turned off comments.

Yes, Lucifer has attempted to twist everything, even the Bible, the reason so many people can use scripture to justify a myrid of behaviours against others. One prime tactic is to make everything black and white – thus every word of what’s in the Bible is thought by some to be 100% directly spoken by God through human servants. To take that to yet another extreme is to think only the King James Version demonstrates God’s accurate words. I do trust that God saw to it that the reocrd of what his Son said is trustworthy, even in the form in which we get it, having been translated. However, any two or more people can read most anything Jesus said and can write books on what Jesus must have meant, whether he meant it figuratively, was telling a story to illustrate what some would not otherwise understand. Does God play games with giving us His Word in such a way that there are mulitple interpretations. Even Thou shalt not kill has become morphed into not killing except for in self defense and then self defense becomes blowing up one’s neighbor for suspicion they might want to blow us away. And why do we need to learn to recognize the “fruit” of any member of the Kingdom of God when they come. Why do we need to keep our lamps trimmed and with oil to see by if Jesus when he comes will be as lightening. Do we need to prepare to SEE him when he comes as lightening. Even so, as I don’t dispute that scripture, does seeing Him as LIghtening mean we are going to understand what we see. If he came inside a comet would we know it if we were not open to the idea. Isn’t the main characteristic of a good observer someone who looks at all they can. How can observation be a negative unless we are afraid of seeing something that would therefore suggest having to “change one’s mind” the real meaning of repentance (which also entails changing our ways). And that’s a case in point. The Term repentence, the word, God, the word Christ, the word Heaven, the word Hell, the word spirit, soul, life, death ALL are seen in a variety of ways depending on the observer and what they want to see or are willing to dig to see. God doen’t want robots who take everything at face value regardless of whether it truely represents what God knows they are capable of, so we are given steps and everyone is not on the same step at the same time which there is no shame in.

And if God wants to change his words that’s god’s perogative not mine. But for the record I think it’s very clear that what he was talkign about in saying that not one jot or tittle of the law would vanish, was that God’s not going to change their commandments which entail the requirements to make application to membership in God’s kingdom.

Ti and Do did not just say they were the Two Witnesses. There exist many hundreds of hours of tapes that recording their step by step progression with their students over 24 years in occupation of physical bodies, (son of hu-man, in other words “begotten” – born from a human woman’s womb). Jesus also said “you will see(understand) the son of man(with a begotten body) coming in/with/among the clouds… sitting on the right hand of power and glory. Jesus is the “right hand man” for His Father, who is his POWER, thus this can be seen as another indicator of who the Two Witnesses (Christs) are, as Father and Son, with the Father also being “born of woman”) in order to birth their son into his Fatherhood.(Rev 12).

So we can trust that God has delivered to us what we need in the record – the bible but most reliably the words of Moses and then the words of Jesus, then secondarily the words of the prophets that seemed to say the same things and that Moses and/or Jesus referenced, like Isaiah and Zechariah and those that were His disciples who demonstrate consistancy with what Moses/Jesus said/did, though part of that consistancy is that there would be updates each time a member of the kingdom of God comes as a “son of man” which tests/challenges everyone to yet a higher set of standards, the reason why Jesus was hated by the very ones who said they were disciples of Moses, and so the process extends itself to now. There must always be leaps of faith as we are putting on amour against the lower forces while bonding, entailing changing our source of life from the human family unit and it’s behavior and ways to the Kingdom of God’s family unit, behavior and ways as given to us, demonstrated to us, so we could mimic and absorb and make our own when we (our souls) have that face to face (born of flesh) opportunity to do so – (not reincarnation, a concept that is a twist of the way the Kingdom of God chooses to bring back the souls(those who are attemptign to wash their robes and have no guile and are overcoming their human mammon masters whom they are working towards spirit/soul birth with that also becomes a moving up opportunity for all God’s creatures.

Henry - September 23, 2011

Hi Marianne,   Indeed those that are deceived continue to argue instead of examining the word properly against their beliefs. Notice that Sawyer does not respond to the specific points I put to him but instead goes around in circles to present different views that purports to be a scriptural challenge to my position on scriptures.   Anyway, I will try to address your other point breifly as this is an entire topic in itself. Do Christians automatically go to heaven when they die? I do not believe that this is the case but please help me out with any scriptures on this that you have.   What I have understood from scripture is that the spirit of man returns to God when someone dies (Ecc 3:21, Ecc 12:7). The question is, does that mean that this spirit is conscious when it returns to God? The same Preacher who said that the spirit returns to God on death says that the dead knoweth nothing (Ecc 9:5).   Consider this then – if we say that a Christian who dies will go straight to heaven are we not saying they are reaping their reward? But isn’t it true that our reward is given when Jesus returns on the day of Judgement? So how can we say that someone is enjoying their reward before the appointed time.   We know that Moses died in Moab (i.e. fell asleep) (Deut 34:5) but Elijah went to heaven without seeing death (2 Kin 2:11). Does the fact therefore that both Moses and Elijah were seen with Christ on the “mount of transfiguration” prove that both Elijah and Moses were in heaven?   I will tell you why I don’t believe that Moses was literally in heaven. The Bible tells us that Jesus was/is the “first born of the dead”.This means the first man to have died, resurrected and ascended to everlasting life. In like fashion those that are in Christ will go through the same “process” when Christ returns. To say then that Moses was in heaven would go against scripture which tells us that Christ is the first fruit of the dead – we would be saying here that Moses died and went to heaven before Christ which would mean Christ was NOT the first fruit of the dead.   I therefore believe that Moses was asleep but was “temporarily made awake” at the “mount of transfiguration.” I am basing this on the fact that though Samuel the prophet was dead a a woman which had a familiar spirit was able to “conjure up” his spirit so that Saul could enquire of him concerning the future of Israel. If Samuel was in heaven how is it that the woman saw him ascending out of the ground (See 1 Samuel 28)? Samuel even asked Saul in verse 15 why did he disturb him to bring him up. On the basis of these points do you still think that the dead in Christ go straight to heaven? Symbolically they do in the sense that they are asured of eternal salvation but are they in a conscious state in heaven enjoying the fruits of paradise? I think not but please provide me with any scriptures to correct me if I am wrong.  

Hopeful_watcher - September 23, 2011

I have heard and I believe its referenced in Luke the ‘bosom of Abraham’ where the good go before judgement. If so, this would parallel your thoughts on this.

5. Henry - September 23, 2011

Sawyer,
What you speak is NOT truth when examined in light of scripture though you may believe that it is. The mistake you have made is to trust in a man’s words rather than to trust in the Bible and then examine what someone claims against the Bible. This is deception.

So far you have not addressed none of my specific points but you resort to subterfuge in avoiding those points. I am not going to continue in a fruitless discussion with you if you cannot scripturally address those points which I have presented to you in my rebuttal of your beliefs. For instance in your first reply you went off on a tangent about people who were disciples and those who were simple believers and I fail to see what value this adds. Questioning Paul’s integrety is again another fruitless point. If you cannot see parallels with Paul’s teaching and Christ’s teachings then you do not know anything about Christian and the walk of faith. To ask why would God choose someone like Paul to be an apostle is a moot point. Have you not heard – ‘For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God?’ ‘Let him that is without sin cast the first stone.’ Who then are you to judge Paul and to question God’s sovereign will to choose him to be His apostle?

It is interesting to see that you yourself come here to judge me and others by your reasoning that we think we are in God’s favour and that those who were with Christ had to give so much and I don’t. I do not condescend to my own sense of self-importance contrary to what you think – these points you raise anyway are nothing but a distraction from the real issues herein and appears to be a deliberate ploy by you. Stick to the issues at hand.

You have demonstrated your level of ignorance when you say that it is God’s perogative to change His own words. To make such a statement is to implicate God in telling untruths. You still do not understand the nature of God – the God of the Bible that is. You have developed a false premise from your encounters with false prophets and teachers. God said: For I am the Lord, I change not (Mal 3:6). Scripture also said: God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind (Num 23:19).

The truth though is that Applewhite and co lied to you. They came to you claiming to be God and Christ – Let me tell you something of a truth: No man hath seen God at anytime (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12). No man can look upon the face of God and live (Ex 33:20). For you to claim then that you have seen God in the persons of Ti and Do is a lie – You have been deceived. You would not have been able to come here to converse with me.

I have presented you with the truth and if you do not want to sit down and study and examine it against scripture then I can’t force you. But what I will not do is to continue to enter into a fruitless discourse with you on claims that cannot be substantiated by the Bible. Anymore fruitless post from you will be deleted forthwith.

Marianne Lordi - September 23, 2011

Hi Henry, When I said about Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ, I did not mean to infer that they were in heaven but rather in Abraham’s bosom until Christ opened heaven with his death. The point I was making is that they were not “asleep” somewhere. Our bodies “sleep when we die and our bodies can no longer worship Christ, however, our soul and spirit is with God when we died. Jesus told the thief on the cross who believed in him that TODAY you will be with me in paradise. We cannot overlook all this, Henry. As for Samuel saying why did you disturb my rest, there are different comments on that situation. But I don’t think you are saying that Samuel was really “resting” and didn’t want to be disturbed. Remember, Saul and the the woman practicing sorcery saw Samuel in his old body. We shed our bodies when we die. To be a believer and to say that we still hold onto them UNTIL we are resurrected is not in scripture. We don’t hold onto our body at the point of death. At the moment we are absent from our body, we are present with the Lord! That is what the bible says. When Stephen was being stoned to death for Christ, he looked up and saw “the Son of Man standing at the right hand of the Father”. Christ was getting ready to welcome him home. Do you think that Jesus showed himself to Stephen in heaven only to let him lie in his corrupt body until the resurrection?

Now those with Christ now are in heaven with him but have not been given their eternal reward. Remember, we will be given jobs and be over angels and over the earth and every thing with Christ. That is when we will receive our full reward. Heaven alone is not it all. He will give to us the reward according to what we did for his kingdom while we were on earth. We will not face a judgment for our sins for they will be remembered no longer as we both know.

There is a great commentary on this subject by John MacArthur. Here is a brief paragraph from one of his comments on this subject:

“Now the word “sleep” in the Bible is used of normal sleep, a recovery process by which the body goes into rest temporarily. John 11:12 uses it in its normal sense. But the word for “sleep” is also used uniquely of Christians and it’s used a number of times for Christians, now listen carefully, and it always refers to their bodies…it always refers to their bodies. The only part of us that goes in to any state of unconsciousness at death is the body. In John, you remember chapter 11 and verse 11, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, Jesus said, but I go that I may awaken him out of sleep. Now everybody knew that Lazarus was…what?…he was dead, he had been dead for three days. His sister said, “By this time his body stinketh.” Decay had set in, he had been entombed, he was dead. From Jesus’ view he was only asleep, his soul was alive not bound in the grave, we don’t know where it was or what it experienced cause the Scripture doesn’t tell us, but it does not pass out of existence since it is eternal and it is eternally conscious. But his body was at rest and Jesus saw that as temporary that’s why He calls it sleep. Sleep is something you wake up from. If you don’t wake up you’re dead or you eventually will die. And so Jesus sees the death of Lazarus as temporary repose of his body.” (John MacArthur)

I don’t want to go on too long. While I firmly believe that when you die, you are present with the Lord as said in Scripture, I don’t think that your belief or mine will affect our salvation. That is all we both need to know.

As for Sawyer, you said enough to him. He isn’t taking any of it in and is just being argumentative. We both explained to him what the bible says and he just wants to add what he believes to the bible and bring judgment on himself. He has his own blog, he should keep his teachings there.

6. sawyer - September 25, 2011

Henry, I just have not have time to respond as I spent a lot of time with someone else, and you will be happy to know that after I respond, I will be out of your hair. I’ve done all I can do. It’s up to you to consider it further or not and it doesn’t matter to me what you choose.

sawyer - September 25, 2011

Henry, I’ve been busy and have already stretched my time for you all, but I’m still a sap to talk about Jesus so I’ll get back to your ill informed assumptions and mindless accusations and petty sumation of a group you admit to knowing little about, while acting as if you have an authortative stance. Have your fun. Actually it’s a signal I’m long overdue to recognize, for me to disengage with you all. That should make you happy.

7. Henry - September 26, 2011

Hi Marianne,

I don’t want you to misunderstand me. I am not saying that when we die we are asleep somewhere. I used the term “asleep” in the same sense that scripture uses it to describe death (see Acts 13:36, 2 Pet 3:4 for example) so I am not being unbiblical here.

I have already said that the spirit goes to God when someone dies but the question I asked you before is whether Christians go to heaven when they die such that they are conscious of the fact that they are in heaven. Abraham’s bossom is a metaphor but for what exactly we don’t really know. According to you also you say that scripture says when we are absent in body we are present with the Lord but you have not offered the source of that scripture. Can you please provide it? Sometimes I wonder if this is more of belief rather than biblical fact.

Anyway if the dead in Christ are with the Lord why are the dead in Christ rising first from the earth to meet Christ in the air when He returns – particularly considering they will receive new bodies? Also did Christ go straight to heaven when He died? Yet at the resurrection His body was not seen in the tomb when they went to visit and check on the third day. It seems therefore that the same body that died is translated at the resurrection (change in the twinkling of an eye).

I have to admit that this whole thing is a mystery which I do not fully have a handle on. To complicate matters even more we have the the story about the souls of them that were martyred from Christ sake under the altar (in heaven) crying to God asking when He will judge the earth. Was this literal or symbolic? If the dead in Christ are with the Lord why are these souls under the altar in the temple in heaven?

8. Henry - September 26, 2011

Sawyer,

I am open to discuss scripture with you on any topic. However the mistake you make is rather than examine what you have been taught against scripture you instead examine scripture against what you have been taught. You reject the teachings of Paul for example based on what you heard someone else teach instead of examining Paul’s teachings against the rest of scripture. I have looked at Paul’s teachings agains Christ’s own and I see no fault in it. When Paul went preaching the Gospel in Berea those that received him received the word with all readiness of heart but they did not accept the teaching at face value. They instead studied the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was true. As a result Paul called them more noble than those of Thessolonica. This is what you should have done.

The mistake you have made is the same thing you are asking me to do. You are asking me to take your word for it on what you say because someone was teaching you this thing for over 20 years – but the length of time something is being taught does not in itself substantiate the truth of it. Hence I have examined those things you have claimed against scriptures and found it wanting. To decry me and argue that I do not no anything about the group is neither here nor there. I do not need to know the history of a group to know whether or not certain claims they make are true or not. I have to examine what you claim against scripture and if it doesn’t tie in with scripture then it has to be rejected.

I have seen though that you have not addressed the things I have said to you on a scriptural basis but you have instead resorted to taking “pop shots” at me and then call my analysis of your doctrine petty. I think it is you who are being petty, not me. Instead of keep going back to what Ti and Do said you should be examining what Ti and Do said agains Holy Writ.

Marianne Lordi - September 26, 2011

Hi Henry,

The souls of those martyred from Christ whose blood cries out to God is not literal. We know that no one is lying around crying out. Just as God told Cain that Abel’s blood cried out from the ground, he was speaking metaphorically. The justice of the matter was the cry!

The awesome teacher, Jonathan Edwards, did a great exposition on this matter that may clear some things up for you. (Absent from the body and present with God is what Paul spoke of in 2 Cor. 5 ). Please read it when you can. Edwards was a great teacher:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/je-absent.htm

9. sawyer - September 28, 2011

I know you weren’t addressing me in this, and you may resent hearing my tone of offerring of another way of seeing things, but the way you seem to be talking here is reminicent of the way I observe you talk about me and the subject of this blog, Heaven’s gate and Henry’s claim that it’s heretical, so I feel obligated to point out my opinion that your way of expression sounds to me so absolutely certain in areas I see as having lots of room for greater or broader understanding. So here is what I offer in this regard:

When The Father or Lord say something through one of their prophets or through those that are greater than what we call Prophets, like Moses and Jesus, I guarantee that even if it’s in story form or looks metaphorical or figurative IT IS A POINTER TO SOMETHING THAT IS VERY VERY LITERALLY APPLICABLE – REAL, True. When someone dies, does something about them continue to exist? A Soul, or a Spirit? If they were murdered and they know it was unjust and God can still hear their sense of the injustice, isn’t that their “blood calling or crying out”. Cry doesn’t necessarily mean tears., like they are sitting around balling their eyes out. However for some who die they may be suspended in a type of perpetual horror at wwhat they experienced. Whenever anyone says something Absolute, they are most always seeing it in a very limited fashion. I believe there is one exception I’m aware of now but could be wrong. when we absolutely express what we don’t know or absolutely know that nothing is impossible for God or that God does not play games with us, like tell us something that is false to test us. We can be sure that this world as we know it didn’t “just happen” like from an unorchestrated big bang, but could God have created a “big bang”, of that I am absolutely sure. I believe it’s important to God that we learn to recognize and restrain our desire to be an authority figure. I now it can seem that since I have somethng to say to everything and present my views as having some authority that I think I am an authority. Well lets say the truth is that I do still have an ego so I do slip and say things like I know them when if push came to shove it is likly I may not. Now this isn’t referring to “experiences” though it would apply to the interpretations of experiences which is why it behooves us to try to be as accurate as we can be when talking about scriptural interpretation which requires looking into the background of the English terms in their latin/greek and/or hebrew origins.

10. Henry - September 29, 2011

Sawyer,
You are going about things the wrong way. What it seems you are attempting to do is to validate the “ministry” of your so-called two witnesses by what they claimed and also based on the lenght of time they have been building this “ministry”.

What we should first do however is to examine whether these could conceivably be the two witnesses not based on what they have claimed but based on what SCRIPTURE says. Now, you have accused me of seeking to be an “authority” on different suggests but what I will say to you is that on the contrary I am to establish scripture as the only authority on any subject I raise here.

You have said that I have rejected your claims about the two witnesses based on “petty summations” etc but it matters not what they may have said, done or written. The first port of call is to examine whether these could be the two witnesses before even bothering to disect their claims. Lets look at it another way – if some person suddenly arrive on the scene and claims to be Christ do you give them audience first to see if their claims sound plausible? My answer to that is no Instead what I would do is see what scripture said on the matter. Does scripture say that Christ can suddenly appear on the scene and start to build a following? Does scripture give us a means to identify Christ when He comes? Does scripture tell us how Christ coming will be and what He will do when He comes? These are the questions I would seek to have answered before entertaining a Christ claimant for some 24 years. This is why I do not need to study anymore about your group and your teachings and belief.

SCRIPTURE is the only authority I need to reject such a Christ claimant who does not fulfil the prophetic words of scripture. When Christ returns all eyes SHALL behold Him and He will not return in scret prior to that appointed time. He said so clearly in His word in Matthew 24. He has stated clearly that we should not believe anyone who comes and claim to be Christ or anyone saying He is here or there.

11. Henry - October 3, 2011

Sawyer,
Further to my last comment let me say that I delete your comments because this blog is about sharing in the gospel of Jesus Christ – but it seems you are more eager to promote the doctrine of your “two witnesses” and therefore does not fulfill the objectives of this blog.

Why do I brand your doctrine heretical? Heresy means “an opinion or belief that contradicts established religious teaching” – what you believe is not in conformity to Christ’s teachings and that is the truth. I do not condemn you as a judge condemns a criminal but if you put yourself outside of the Grace of Christ they yes, scripture says you are already condemned. But I want to show you the truth that you may not be condemned.

On your blog you wrote that Jesus is a space alien (ufonaut) from an advanced futuristic society “whose purpose it is to grow soul seeds they plant into new members via their voluntary participation in an “overcoming” experiential classroom that ultimately requires cutting our human roots in thought, word and deed.” This view of Christ does not conform to Christian orthodoxy and is therefore heretical. In fact you are talking about an entirely different Jesus here and not the one from the Bible.

Why does it not conform? It is not the Gospel of our Lord. What you have stated here is not in the Bible. Jesus the Son of God came into the world to die so that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life. He was made a living sacrifice to make amends for the sins of the world through the Grace of God. If we believe in this Jesus, that He died and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven we may inherit eternal life – we must believe and repent of our sinss and receive Him into our hearts in order to be saved.

When we die in this life we do not merely shed a skin or a suit of clothing in order to take on a new one somewhere else as you believe. However, Jesus will again raise the said body we shed just as He raised Lazurus – it is this same old body that will enter into judgement. Those that are in Christ will have this old body transformed and made incorruptible but those that fall outside of His grace will be punished in hell. Those that gave their lives back in 1997 to be on a mother ship are not on any such ship – they are dead and awaiting the resurrection into the same body they left when Christ returns.

Talking of Christ’s return, again there is much confusion on your part concerning this. You have completely misunderstood what the scriptures were saying when they said that Christ would return as the lightening flashes from east to west. You interpreted this to mean that Christ would come as a light to those who can see Him. Not so! This scripture litterally meant that Christ will descend from the Heavens such that all eyes on earth shall see Him coming in the same way we see the lightening flashing across the sky. I hope you will consider these things and check what you believe in against scriptures and not attempt to strectch scripture to fit what you believe in.

Hopeful_watcher - October 5, 2011

The jesus as a space being is an interesting concept, because I believe that a false Christ will present himself and that’ll be exactly how he comes. If so, there will be a lot of people, Sawyer being one if them, who fall for the lie.

sawyer - October 5, 2011

I did talk about scripture in my response that is listed as “awaiting moderation” so how come you didn’t it let it go though. Are you protecting someone who you don’t think is on strong enough group to hear what comes out of my little brain, or what is your reason exactly?

sawyer - October 5, 2011

Just so you know, I am rewarded whether you or others hear me or not. So just giving me this forum is helping me and those that read my blog where I also post these things that also goes to facebook. So if you really want to do service to yourself and whoever else you serve I suggest turning off my subscription to your blog or stop responding to what I say. You’ve already deceided I’m a lost soul so why bother try to brainwash me into the illusion you insist on having that you think is so aware but are afraid to hear a counter to. I have listened to all your counters and you have not replied to all the many sriptural points I brougth up? Like answer me this one. When Jesus salked about leaving mother and father and sister and brother and lands and CHILDREN BEHIND TO FOLLOW HIM what did he mean by that? I’m curious as to yoru interreatation? I bet you won’t post this. And when jesus said that to “make oneself a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven’s sake” what did he mean by that ? and when he said one needed to give away all his possessions, what did he mean by that. and when he said, if you don’t keep his saying you are not his discople what did he meant by that? and when he said his disciples would also have to drink the same cup he was drinking what did he mean by “cup”? want me to continue. cut off an hand, pluck out an eye… and there is lots more.

Hopeful_watcher - October 5, 2011

I didn’t say I thought jesus (with a small j) was a space alien. I said a false christ could reveal himself as one. A picture is worth a thousand words so they say, even a thousand words from the word of God, unfortunately. Please don’t try and co-op my thoughts. People have faith in what they experience over God’s word. Your faith in the false Christ of Ti and Do is an example of that. Jesus has not been on the earth since he was crucified. He has not returned yet so your ti and do MUST be false.

sawyer - October 5, 2011

co opt your words, that’s a stretch. I know what you said but you don’t have anything new to say, so I’m giving you the new stuff just in case and I know it’s a loooooonnnnnnngggg shot, you open your eyes and live up to the handle you have as “watcher”. What are you watching for, nothing. Are you gonna see a long haired, robe or loin cloth clad human looking bearded jesus hovering in the sky with arms open to all his believers that talk, talk, talk, quote, quote, quote and yet wouldn’t know the real deal Jesus if he was looking him in the eye.

Why do you keep talking in this blog. Are you just trying to annoy or show henry or marianne somethuing about yourself that’s holy.

I asked henry some questions that he probably didn’t post. Can you answer them??? I can see he did post them, so let’s see if you can pass the “scripture meaning test”, What did jesus mean, intend us to do to be his disciples. What makes us worthy???? He said we had to be worthy did he not. Do we have to be disciples? Do you have to live up to what Jesus expected of his “disciples”? Or are you special and can get to heaven without that investment of ALL your mind,soul, body and strength? If you have to give “all your body” what does that mean? Celebacy of brain and body/actions? Is that why he said making oneself a eunuch when for the kingdom of heaven’s sake was okay by him. Why did he say, his disciples would drink his cup? What was the “cup” to him. Why did he say, it would be better to cut off one’s hand or pluck out an eye, because of these offending you than to have your whole body cast into hell. Why did he say to his disciples, they would have to leave all behind to follow him which included children. Let’s go to the church service and ask the priests and pastors why they had to do that but that’s not taught today. And do you put paul on the same pedestal with your idea of Jesus. Why is it so many run to paul’s words. I’ll tell you why oof which I have many, many examples. Paul wasn’t working for Jesus. At least henry showered me with all his ideas about the rev. 7 angles and the 3 woes that I still need to get back to him on, not that it will matter, but you have not pointed out why Ti and Do don’t fulfill prophecy. Have you studied the greek in the versus of chapter 11 or is that a no no for you? Dont’ want to see what’s not been given to us to understand right. Trust the church founding fathers, perhaps and the holy father in the vatican? Is he your god? I told this to henry and it’s the same to you. keep your negative talk about the information Ti and Do brought to yourself, otherwise you will pay dearly. It won’t be by my hand as that’s not my job. But you will be treatd as a weed by the kngdom of God and by the way there are things worse than death and/or torture, even after death. In fact, I suspect when some die they may see Do’s face, if they know what he looked like in his last vehicle, and not just see his face but know they were wrong and can’t change it so remain in a horrified state while in the spirit world, that is until it’s recycle time, but it will seem like an eternity in that state. I totally respect questions and debate and opinions but opinions without any guts are shrouded lies. So do you have the guts to answer any of my questions above?

Let’s debate it. I never will mention ti and do. keep it Jesus with a big J.

12. Hopeful_watcher - October 6, 2011

Provocation is the spirit of the antichrist. I owe you nothing, especially one with such a twisted agenda. The onus is on you since millions follow Jesus and yet a handful of Nike wearing people follow ti and do.

13. Henry - October 6, 2011

Sawyer,
Once again I have had to delete a number of your posts because they are more about promoting your doctrine rather than to discuss issues from a scriptural point of view. I think you have attempted to stretch scriptures to fit with your view rather than to let scripture speak. Why should I answer any of your questions when you ignore those I presented to you and try to belittle or dismiss clear scriptural teachings I presented? But nevertheless I will attempt to answer your questions if it will make any difference.

You do not need to subscribe to this blog if you do not wish to. I am sure there is an option for you to unsubscribe from within your emails when new posts arrive in there. I will respond to your posts in order to demonstrate to readers why your message is unbiblical and what the truth of scripture says. You do not need to continue to reply if you do not wish to but be sure that if any unbiblical messages will be deleted. I do not tell you how to run your blog so please don’t try to tell me how to run mine.

To your questions:
I have not decided you are a lost soul – it is not for me to decide but what I am able to say is that your beliefs are unbiblical. If you offer a counter to what I say make sure it is supported by scripture else I am not interested in conjectures or suppositions about who you think the two witnesses are or Christ for that matter.

Question 1

When Jesus salked about leaving mother and father and sister and brother and lands and CHILDREN BEHIND TO FOLLOW HIM what did he mean by that? I’m curious as to yoru interreatation?”

It would have been better if you quoted the scriptures you refer to than jumble up and paraphrase Christs words because He never said those words exactly. But here is an example of what Christ said:

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (Matt 10 see also Luke 14:26)
Jesus meant only that He is the way to salvation and we should not let anything or anyone be an hindrance to us following Him. For example, a Jewish son or daughter would follow their father’s religion naturally but if they received Christ and the father did not this would set them at variance with their father. But Christ is saying here that we should be willing and be prepared to be set against our own family for salvation’s sake, not that we should literally leave them and separate ourselves. In this life we walk by faith believing in the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Bible and seeking to obey His commands through the enabling of the Holy Spirit. And when we have found Christ it is our duty to share the gospel with others including our families that they too may be sanctified and come into faith in Christ.

And when jesus said that to “make oneself a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven’s sake” what did he mean by that ?

Jesus most certainly did not command us to make ourselves eunuch for the Kingdom of Heaven. This is you misquoting His words or maybe you are quoting Ti and Do. The scripture says this:

11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, only they to whom it is given.
12For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs of men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (Matt 19)

Jesus was illustrating a point here to the disciples, who had a bit of a discussion about marriage and divorce, that not everyone will marry for some were born eunuchs and some were made eunuchs by men and some chose to be eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake. It was not an instruction to become eunuchs in order to be a follower of Christ. Read the previous verses of the chapter. Peter, one of the 12 disciples for example was married (Matt 8:14).

and when he said one needed to give away all his possessions, what did he mean by that.

Again you need to quote the specific verse but here is an example:
21Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 19)

In this example we see Jesus instructing a rich young man to give his possessions to the poor and come follow Him. Jesus simply used this to illustrate that our possessions should not mean more to us than obtaining salvation – He was demonstrating how the rich allowed their riches to deceive their hearts and create an obstacle to them obtaining salvation. Rather they should use their riches to do good so that they may have a reward in heaven.

and when he said, if you don’t keep his saying you are not his discople what did he meant by that?

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matt 7)

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. (John 24)

Jesus commanded us to be perfect even as He is perfect – the things that He commands therefore are to our own profit in perfecting our faith in Him so that we may inherit eternal life at the resurrection of the dead. Jesus says He will come again and His reward is with Him to give to everyone according to their works. If we do His commands we will receive the reward of eternal life.

and when he said his disciples would also have to drink the same cup he was drinking what did he mean by “cup”?

23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: (Matt 20)

Saying here that the sons of the mother of Zebedee’s children would drink of His cup and be baptized with the baptism he is baptized with. We must be careful when reading or quoting scriptures. Jesus did indeed warn the disciples throughout that they will be persecuted, killed, tortured etc for His sake and this goes for Christians in general. This is because if we are His the world will hate us in the same way it hated Him. (This was nothing to do with us taking poison to take our own lives as your brethren did back in 1997)

want me to continue. cut off an hand, pluck out an eye… and there is lots more.

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (Matt 5)

Again here the pertinent scriptures were simply illustrating that we need to make sacrifices and give up those things that we are attached to that causes us to sin in order to inherit eternal life. It did not mean we should pluck out our right eye or cut off our hand literally. But then it would take a regenerated soul to understand that.

sawyer - October 18, 2011

Here is the defintion of the greek misew.

Hate = 3404 misew miseo mis-eh’-o from a primary misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:–hate(-ful).

I don’t know when this “love less” part got added but it has zero language roots to misew and misos and is in fact the opposite point of view. To evidence this:

Try putting “love less” in every place where Jesus used the word that in greek was miseq/misoss as I have provided below. Doesn’t love have the opposite meaning. So were the people that were trying to stone him and his disciples and seeking to kill them just “loving them less” than the people they were not stoning and persecuting?

The mistake the Luciferians when they influnence even well meaning humans to do their deceitful work is that they can’t twist the translation to apply in all the contexts that Jesus provided it’s use. The Kingdom of God gives enough examples that it just doesn’t make any sense, but of course who would be popular and have a growing group of followers that give them money and service and self worth if they actually taught that it would be a fact that those closest to you that you had to leave behind would detest you. Why else would they be detested and persecuted and stoned and murdered and locked into prisons. Let’s face it the real Jesus was a dangerous cult leader in his day to those that couldn’t or didn’t want to try to actually pay attention to what he had to say.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

1John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1John 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

14. Alfred Mullholland - March 24, 2014

That Sawyer guy is totally misinterpreting revelations. The 7 years hasn’t started yet (3/24/2014 :)) so how could the 2 witnesses be dead already?

Here we go loopy-loo!

sawyer - March 24, 2014

What is your evidence that the 7 years hasn’t started yet?


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