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Will You Be Left Behind? July 9, 2010

Posted by Henry in Eschatology & End Times.
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Each time I look at this issue of the rapture I can’t help but be amazed and amused at how people can be so easily persuaded to believe something that is not even founded in scripture. I guess this is one of the results of extra-biblical materials from people who claim to have some kind of secret knowledge or insight. Take the Left Behind books for instance. These are nothing but fiction yet people buy and believe in them as if they are gospel truth. If Tim Lahaye (et al) really believed in an imminent rapture I don’t think they would be so concerned with amassing wealth now would they. After all where are they going to spend all that money, in Heaven? Already 63 million copies of this book have been sold worldwide and there are movies and games to go with it and yet people are unable to see into the scam of it all. If these men really believed the stuff they wrote they wouldn’t be trying to peddle it but instead they would be given this info out for free. 

The simple truth is that there is no imminent rapture. Strictly speaking the idea behind an imminent rapture is that Jesus can come anytime (or the church can and will be miraculously wisked away before you can say ABC) but of course if we read scripture we can discern that this is not so. To add to that the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is a LIE – It is a complete fabrication by fantasists. Simply put, a pre-tribulation rapture purports that the church will be raptured before the man of sin, the son of perdition (synonymous with the anti-christ beast of Revelations) comes to fore but again I will show that this is simply not so.

Paul writing to the Thessalonians had this to say:

2 Thess 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He was encouraging the brethren that they should not be deceived or be troubled in spirit concerning the day of Christ being at hand (or imminent). And as such he reminded them of a key sign which would need to take place before the day of Christ came. This sign was that the falling away (OF THE CHURCH INTO APOSTACY) and the revealing of the man of sin would need to take place first. If this man of sin is the same as the anti-christ beast of Revelations then Paul’s explanation here is corroborated by Rev 20:4-5 which makes it clear that the first resurrection (which is considered the rapture) takes place after the anti-christ was already in power and persecuting and killing the saints. It should be noted that the scripture which is cited for the rapture is 1 Thess 4:13-17. Essentially the resurrection and catching away must necessarily be the FIRST resurrection which included those who were also beheaded by the beast and those who overcame his mark and image.

In light of this therefore where is the pre-tribulation rapture and how can it be imminent? Yet you have people falling over themselves looking at Jewish feast days and wedding ceremonies trying to prove something that is clearly not in scripture. Why are so many people being deceived on this issue which is so simple to understand?

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1. Don McAllister - July 9, 2010

Amazing Henry! Something that is so controversial and you settled the question in one-fell-swoop! Yet, you have one gigantic problem. By making the resurrection and catching away as taking place in Rev.20:4, you ignore the fact that we, the body of believers, are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God (1Thes.5:9), that wrath being carried out by the seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Also, the event in Rev.20:4 is only a resurrection and there is no catching away related to this resurrection as specified in 1Thes.4:16. Another thing to consider is that, the phrase “First Resurrection” does not mean “one.” In fact, there are more than a couple of resurrections that take place that are part of the “First Resurrection,” Jesus being the first fruits of that first resurrection. Rev.20:4 is the resurrection specifically of the great tribulation saints, those who will have not worshiped the beast or his image or received his mark in their right hands or forehead.

The other thing that you and many others don’t take into consideration is the fact that, the word “Ekklesia” translated church is used from chapter 1 through the very end of Chapter 3 and then it dissappears from use. The next word used to describe a believer is “Hagios” (saint) and is used from then on to describe a believer. It is not a coincidence that the word “Church” is missing from that point on, as these are clues left by God in his word.

When all is said and done, you have the entire church going through the beginning and ending of the wrath of God. Evidence of this is, by the time Christ returns to set up his millennial kingdom, the last bowl will have already been poured out prior to his arrival.

People need to understand that, the resurrection and catching away of the church, dead and alive, as listed in 1Thes.4:16 and 1Cor.15:51, is a serarate event from the return of Christ to set up his millennial kingdom. The problem is that many have spliced them together as the same even, which is the problem.

“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also [keep you from] the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” (Rev.3:10)

To keep one “from” the hour would mean that we don’t even enter into that hour of trial, which is not an hour or a day, but is referring to that period of wrath, also called the day of the Lord. And since the whole world will be envolved with this time of trial, the church cannot be here, because we are kept from it.

The wrath of God should not to be confused with persecution which is meted out by men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background. The wrath of God is just that, God’s wrath, which is poured out directly upon a Christ rejecting, unrepentant world.

When studying the word of God, we need to apply Spiritual deduction, looking at all the facts and clues, as in solving a case.

In Short, Jesus is not going to build his Church and then send it through the wrath of God.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

2. Paul Bortolazzo - July 10, 2010

Hi Henry,
Jesus never places the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering up of believers
from earth, before, in the middle, or at the end of the 70th week. Think of the countless hours of research, preaching, articles, and books by believers vainly trying to prove a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation rapture. These interpretations are not in scripture. Let’s remember, the 70th week of Daniel is never called the tribulation period (Dan. 9:24). When Jesus says ‘after the tribulation of these days’, He is referring to the first five seals on the outside of the heavenly scroll. Jesus will open the 4th seal in the middle of the 70th week (Rev. 6:7-8, Mat. 24:9-15). The Son of Man will come back after He opens the 6th seal (Mark 13:24-27). This proves the gathering up of the elect at His coming must happen sometime in the second half of the 70th week; no man knows the exact day or hour (Mat. 24:36).

3. Paul Bortolazzo - July 10, 2010

The Feasts of the Lord include Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Weeks, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles. These first four Feasts represent what the Lord did during His first coming. During the Feast of Passover, the blood of Jesus was shed on a cross (John 19:14, 1 Cor. 5:7, Heb. 9:28a, John 1:29). During the Feast of Unleavened Bread, His body did not decay while in the grave (Psa. 16:10, Acts 2:27). During the Feast of First Fruits, Jesus rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20). During the Feast of Weeks, the power of the Spirit of Christ came upon believers (Acts 2:1-4).

The last three Feasts represent what the Lord will do during His second coming. During the Feast of Trumpets the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father. His angels will gather the righteous before the unrighteous are destroyed (Mat. 24:29-31, 16:27, 1 Cor. 15:50-52, Ezra 3:1-6). The prophets call it the day of the Lord (Joel 2:30-31, Isa. 13:9-11, Zep. 2:3). During the Day of Atonement the Holy One will return for the salvation of Israel (Dan. 9:24, Rev. 10:1-7, Rom. 11:25-27, Heb. 9:28). Five days later, during the Feast of Tabernacles, the Messiah will gather the remnant of Israel before the last seven plagues are poured out (Lev. 23:32-34, Rev. 14:1-4; 15:1; 16:1-21).
The resurrection during the Feast of Trumpets is the first event of Christ’s second coming. The spiritual salvation of Israel will begin once the Holy One (Messiah) comes to earth on the Day of Atonement. This is the second event of His coming (Rev. 10:1-7).
“I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine. All flesh shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” (Isa. 49:26)
Try comparing the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:30-31), the appearing of the Word of God (Rev. 19:11-21), and the descent of the Lamb of God (Rev. 21:9-10), with the return to earth by the Holy One (Rev. 10:1-7). (Chart-The Second Coming of Christ) There can only be one conclusion. The only time people are spiritually saved during His coming will be on the Day of Atonement; when the Messiah returns in a cloud (Rev. 10:1). Just like the two angels said (Acts 1:11).

4. Henry - July 12, 2010

Don,
Yes my friend, one fell swoop! I have not ignored anything. Yes, the church will escape the wrath of God BUT the wrath of God is distinct from tribulation. Whilst we are not appointed unto wrath we are appointed unto tribulation. You will see this throughout the New Testament. Some of the early apostles were martyred for the Gospel (some beheaded and stoned to death) and the same will happen at the hands of the anti-christ/beast.

Now the resurrection and catching away (so-called rapture) must take place after the beast comes to power and is part of the same first resurrection of Rev 20:4-5. The evidence for this is clearly in Rev 15:1 – it is up to you and others if you want to ignore it. If you are to accept the implications of Rev 15 then you would need to throw out the rapture theory so you ignore it. It is you therefore who have a gigantic problem and not me.

Here is what Rev 15 says:

1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

What did John see in Heaven or do you want me to spell it out? Conflate that with Rev 20:4-5. Do you still insist then that at the first resurrection there is no “catching away” yet your so-called tribulation saints who had the victory over the beast, image and mark are seen in heaven in Rev 15 before the wrath is poured out? Hmm! I have presented this very point to you in the past with not even so much as a rebuttal. All I was met with was silence from you (and Wabd). I expect the same this time around as well because you refuse to acknowledge what is clearly written in scripture in so far it does not agree with your pre-trib position.

PS: Couple other points I would like to add. According to you since Revelation 4 the word church is absent and only the term saint is seeing. This you use to say that it is because the church is raptured and therfore saint only refers to tribulation saints. Ok. Lets assume that this is true. Does this therefore not mean that the “tribulation saints” (rendered saints) were also “caught up” as well reading from Rev 19:1-9. Does it not say in verse 7 and 8 that the wife had made herself ready and it was granted that she be arrayed in fine linen because it is the righteousness of the saints. Is the use of the word sainst here being referred to tribulation saints or would you switch the rendering here to church? If saints here refer to tribulation saints then they too were in heaven also (verse 1 – voice of much people in heaven) and were part of the wife which were arrayed in fine linen. Now look at verse 14. “14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” We already saw that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints therefore these “armies” which follow Jesus as He rode out of Heaven must be the same saints that were allowed to put on fine white linen which represented their righteousness. It cannot be the angels because if they are already in heaven they are already pure and don’t need linen as they had not washed their robes and made them white the way Christians from earth had to.

5. harleyq2 - July 13, 2010

I believe like so many passages in the bible, the “rapture” was taken out of context. Jesus was giving examples that his return will be like a thief in the night and you will not know the exact time or as if two people were in a field and one was taken the other left. The point is we cannot put a date to Jesus’s return but we were given signs to be aware of that points it. In terms of the tribulation, it is not just one event. I has been happening since Jesus’ time and even now where people are persecuted for their believes and it will continue until the Lord returns. However, bible does say things will progressively get worse and we just have to look around to see it.

6. Paul Bortolazzo - July 14, 2010

Jesus told believers His coming will be like the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:26-33). The world will be living in darkness when the Son of Man gathers His elect (2 Pet. 3:10). His disciples simply wanted to know the sign alerting them it was near. After describing the events believers should be looking for, Jesus shared the sign of His coming.
“For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Mat. 24:27)
Every eye will see this sign appear in heaven (Mat. 24:30, Rev. 1:7). The unsaved will mourn when they see the Son coming in glory of His Father (Mat. 16:27). They will be terrified; not knowing what to expect. It will be the exact opposite for the saved seeking physical redemption. Ever since the Son ascended to the right hand of His Father, every generation has watched for these events (Luke 21:28, Mat. 24:33). They never came; not yet. After describing the events warning us His coming is near (Mat. 24:3-33), Jesus made this amazing statement. Only His Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:36). Even though the Son didn’t know the exact day, Jesus prophesied a scenario He wants every Christian to understand.

7. Henry - July 14, 2010

@Haleyq2,
You are absolutely right. Tribulation has indeed been with the church since the birth of the church. Some of the early diciples/apostles/christians faced it during the “great tribulation” of Jerusalem under Titus. The church faced great tribulation at the hands of the Roman Catholic church during the middle-ages. In some countries today the church is also facing great tribulation. But Paul already said it, Through much tribulation must we enter into the Kingdom of Heaven”.

@Paul,
You would be amazed to see the number of foolish Christians that are trying to work out the date of the pre-tribulation rapture. Some placed it in June 2010 and say this year will be the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. Others are trying to place it between 2011 and 2015 etc. The mind boggles how people can become so foolish in their vain surmisings. Of course they keep getting it wrong and yet they still go back to the drawing board and try to rework the date. What foolishness!

8. Paul Bortolazzo - July 14, 2010

Haley,
Jesus never places the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering up of believers
from earth, before, in the middle, or at the end of the 70th week. Think of the countless hours of research, preaching, articles, and books by believers vainly trying to prove a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation rapture. These interpretations are not in scripture. Let’s remember, the 70th week of Daniel is never called the tribulation period (Dan. 9:24). When Jesus says ‘after the tribulation of these days’, He is referring to the first five seals on the outside of the heavenly scroll. Jesus will open the 4th seal in the middle of the 70th week (Rev. 6:7-8, Mat. 24:9-15). The Son of Man will come back after He opens the 6th seal (Mark 13:24-27). This proves the gathering up of the elect at His coming must happen sometime in the second half of the 70th week; no man knows the exact day or hour (Mat. 24:36).

9. Eric - August 13, 2010

Rapture?……..Pre-Trib?…….I bought into all that false gospel junk for too many years…….THEN I READ/STUDIED for myself. The body of Christ is going to go through some hard stuff. Heavy Persecution is coming, and I mean its going to come quickly. Islam is going to trodden down Israel. Read Daniel & pray as you read because you must understand the the 4th Kingdom & the 4th Beast. They are one in the same. Islam. Its really time for the Church to wake up, and get serious about the One who is coming back…..soon. God promises to save us from the wrath to come. That is entirely different from persecution. The church will witness martyrdom on a level never before seen. Make sure your first love is the Lord Jesus Christ.

10. Henry - August 13, 2010

Hello Eric,
Thanks for stopping by. Indeed the church is set to go through “great tribulation” (persecution) before the Son of Man puts in His appearance. I would not be so quick to argue that Islam constitute the fourth beast though but thanks for your testimony of how you became awakened from this false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Too many believers are asleep and are not reading their Bibles for themselves but are instead reading worthless books by so-called Christian stalwarts most of whom are false prophets in our pulpits. Even if they read it they read with a biased view in terms of trying to make the Word fit around what they desire.

11. David - September 26, 2010

Henry,

This idea about the placing and timing of the catching up of the saints, has much merit. It seems to me that there is a growing awareness amongst Christians that some of the popular teachings on the end times are a little bit tenuous.

I am beginning to think that Daniel 9 holds a few clues, or rather interpretations of Daniel 9 have lead to diverse claims. A seven year – 70th week – mandates a lens to read much of the NT prophecies time line.

If Daniels 70th week is actually half fulfilled – and there is reasons to suggest this – then the time of God’s coming wrath is only 31/2 years. This means the seals are a lead up to the catching up of the saints and then Gods wrath. This fits nicely with Matt. 24 – as the general signs of the time lead up to the final time.

This of course does not contradict what you are suggesting, but seems to fit quite well.

I have generally become suspicious of some of the teaching surrounding the end times, and recently have tried to shake of some of the guff I have collected over the last 40 years. It seems important to me, to thoroughly investigate some of the claims made, and to study the word to arrive at a clearer understanding.

I think what you say in your end time articles have much merit, but think there is much more to this subject – especially as we see the day approaching.

12. Henry - September 27, 2010

Hi David,

Welcome and thank you for your comments. I do not disagree that there is much more to the subject of the end times but my purpose was to highlight some of the outrightly false gospels that has spread throughout the church. By trying to highlight some of them I am hoping that readers may then take a more in depth look at the doctrine they have received in light of scripture. Take this very subject of “Left Behind”. This has propelled Tim Lahaye and the likes to worldwide fame and fortune but for me if truly people like Tim Lahaye really believe the stuff he wrote he would be more eager to give the information out to people for free instead of selling it. If he believes he won’t be “left behind” does he think he can carry the money with him where he is going?

But in Christendom today many people throw away all sense of rationality and buy into any and every Dick, Tom or Harry who claims to be anointed and to have a “word from the Lord”. It is these people, instead of following Paul’s admonitions, who allow false doctrines to flourish. A “pre-tribulation rapture” does not stand up in light of scripture yet there are so many people who have bought into this lie. Indeed if we follow the pattern of the seals, the resurrection and catching away (the rapture) would occur at the 6th seal then the wrath of God poured out at the 7th seal. But what pre-tribulationists have done is to insert something into scriptures which says that the wrath of God commences at the first seal and therefore the rapture must occur before the first seal, since scriptures tell us that we are not appointed unto wrath. Hence we are at a position which says that Christ comes once in secret to rapture the saints then comes visibly to earth at another time when all eyes would behold Him. Yet this is not supported by Matt 24 at all. Anyway it is good to hear that you have thrown away much of the junk you had previously gathered. The Lord is still working and opening the eyes of some.

13. Paul Bortolazzo - September 27, 2010

Hi Henry,
I so much appreciate your ministry and your love For God’s people. Here are two posts that agree the rapture comes aft the opening of the 6th seal by Jesus in Mat. 24:29-31.

If the rapture, one taken one left, takes place during the coming of the Son of Man in v30-31, and the Antichrist invades Jerusalem in v15, what comes first, the persecution by the Antichrist or the rapture? The answer is the Antichrist comes BEFORE the rapture. So can the rapture come at any moment? According to Jesus, not yet!

No man knows the day or hour of the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:36) but Jesus gave us the events to watch for that show His coming is near (v33). The critical event every believer should be ready for is the invasion of Jerusalem by the Antichrist in Mat. 24:15, the bride isn’t taken up at His coming til v30!

14. David - September 28, 2010

Thanks for replying Henry.

I would be keen to hear what you think of Daniel and the 70 weeks, and how this plays into your scheme of things – as far as I can tell you believe in a 7 year tribulation/wrath period.

I am also assuming, that you have based this on a reading of Daniel 9, if not then what?

David

Henry - September 28, 2010

Hi David,
The truth is I believe that Daniel 9 is a very difficult and problematic prophecy to decipher and the many different interpretations that abound contribute much to the confusion. If you look under the Eschatology & End Times category you will see a number of post I wrote highlighting some of the “prophetic dilemma’s” surrounding the interpretation of this prophecy.

The way many people have interpreted Daniel 70 weeks is that 69 of those weeks have been completed and the 70th week is the last week which will occur at some future time at the very end of the age. These 69 weeks they say began from the issue of the decree by Artaxerxes [Book of Nehemiah] to rebuild (or rather to continue) the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple through to Christ death. Taking a day for a year then 7 days is a week of years therefore 69wks is a period of 483 years. I am sure you know this already anyway. So according to the interpretation the last week of 7 years will span 7 years of tribulation which immediately precedes Christ return. This conclusion is reached based on the fact that Jesus said in Matt 24 that after the tribulation of those days shall the sign of the Son of man appear in the heavens etc. Going back to Daniel 9 therefore the say that at the start of the 70th week the anti-christ will form a covenant with Israel (although the scripture said “with the many”) and in the middle of the 7 year covenant the anti-christ will break it and destroy the temple and exile the Jews from Jerusalem. [Let me say categorically though that I DO NOT believe in a 7 year tribulation period.] At this point though it gets very interesting indeed and I will show you why.

The land of Canaan was given to Israel by God as an inheritance but there were some pre-conditions that went with it looking at the whole of Deuteronomy but more specifically chapter 28. God promised to drive the Israelites out of the land into foreign lands if the Israelites did not obey His ordinances and statutes. Now it was because of this failure why God sent the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) against Israel to disperse (make it desolate) them and take them into captivity because of their persistence in failing to uphold God’s laws. The captivity was to last for 70 years (see both Jeremiah and Daniel) as God had decreed. Now it had come to the end of the 70 years when Daniel started making supplications to God in Daniel 9 about the plight of his people. So the angel came to tell Daniel that at the start of his supplication the commandment came forth to go and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. This took place when Cyrus of Persia was king of Babylon and it was in the second year of his reign when he was 62 (See Daniel 4). This was therefore the first decree (See Ezra 1-4) several years before Artaxerxes in the time of Nehemiah the prophet. So the first problem is do we start the 69wks from Cyrus’ decree or several years down the road after the rebuilding work had already started and stopped after which time a decree was made to continue the work by Artaxerxes. [Note however that Darius who succeeded Cyrus also made a decree re the continuation of the building work prior to Artaxerxe’s decree]. Anyway that is one dilemma.

After the rebuilding work the Israelites had returned to resettle in Jerusalem and this is evidenced in the Book of Nehemiah leading up to the time of Christ. Now the prophecy of Daniel 9 says that after the resettlement and Messiah coming and then being cut off a people of a prince who shall come will destroy the rebuilt temple and the sanctuary and with the overspreading of abominations shall make the place (Jerusalem) desolate. The word desolate refers to the fact that the Israelites would again be scattered (dispersed) from where they had been resettled. So the prophecy points to a SECOND dispersion of the Israelites (or Jews if you prefer). Now here is the clincher. Interpretations of Matt 24 suggest that the abomination which maketh desolate would occur at a future time during the 70th and last week when the anti-christ should destroy the peace covenant and a future rebuilt (third) Jewish temple. My contention though is that Daniel 9 most certainly was referring to the destruction of the Temple that had been rebuilt at the decree of Cyrus et al and not some future Jewish temple. Otherwise what we would be saying is that prophecy has completely ignored the destruction of the temple in 70 AD by Titus Vespasian and the resulting dispersion of the Jews. So Daniel 9 and Matt 24 speaks of the same event – the destruction of the temple by Titus in 70AD – we can’t have it both ways. Jesus said plainly in Matt 24 that the temple as it existed at that time would be destroyed (see verses 1-2). The disciples enquired of Him as to when this should happen as well as what should be the sign of His coming. Jesus therefore conflated the events that would take place from the destruction of the temple straight through to the time of His coming. In all of that Jesus pointed to only one destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, which we know was fulfilled in 70AD, causing the SECOND dispersion (desolation) of the Jews. How can we therefore push these prophecies of Daniel 70th week and Matt 24 into a future unkown period whilst completely ignoring what has already been fulfilled?

Now check this: We have seen that there has been TWO DESOLATION’S of Israel causing their dispersion. After the first dispersion by the king of Babylon, God re-gathered them at the decree of Cyrus. The second dispersion took place at the hands of Titus so the question is whether or not God would again re-gather the Jews into Jerusalem. Does scripture support such a SECOND re-gathering? The answer is YES! But when will this take place or has this taken place already? Some people are of the view that prophecy was fulfilled when the Jewish state of Israel was created in 1948 – which they say points to the “prophetic return” of the Jews. But here is the PROBLEM:

Isaiah 11
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Note in this portion of scripture that the Lord said He would gather the remnants of Israel and Judah a SECOND TIME. When was the second dispersion? You guessed it, 70 AD. So when will this SECOND re-gathering take place? If you read from verse 1 of the passage you will be left in no doubt that this SECOND re-gathering takes place when Christ returns. Look at verse 4 for example:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

We know from 2 Thess 2:8 that Jesus will destroy the wicked with the breath of His mouth at His coming. So then the interpretations of Daniel 9 and Matt 24 would suggest that there would need to be a third desolation of Israel along with the destruction of a third temple (during the future 70th week) but this is not supported anywhere in scripture. Scripture supports that the temple will be destroyed two times and that the Jerusalem would be made desolate two times and the re-gathering of Israel by God would occur two times. There is therefore clearly a problem with putting Daniel’s 70th week at a future date and to point to this period as the tribulation. Arguably the “great tribulation” started from the time of the destruction of the second temple (as per Matt 24) by Titus and will continue leading up to Christ’s return.

15. Jerry kelso - March 25, 2012

Henry, I wanted to email you but, couldn’t find one. This is in reply to your closing the pre-trib post down. That is fine because you are the moderator and it’s your blog and I am not trying to create controversy to the extreme.
I did not understand that the blog was just about disproving pre-trib rapture position. The conclusion only leads to your position being right instead of the truth being told. One has to be pliable to the truth at all times at any cost. Peter did when Paul in Antioch. Now I am not talking as an apostolic authority as much as I am being corrected by the word.
I understand at the same time you want to maintain control of your blog. So I would say study the context more in your subjects across the board. I say this as food for thought because you do not understand the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God message that John the Baptist and Jesus taught and you are not fully understanding the earthly calling of Israel and the Heavenly calling of the church, most gentile believers do not because they do not understand the HEBRAIC PERSPECTIVE ENOUGH.
You may delete this message if you like, but, I hope you do take to heart that I say this out of love.
I do want you to know that I don’t disagree that Jesus is coming immediately after the tribulation, because he is coming with his saints ready for battle who are all coming out of Heaven.
This is right after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which is in Heaven. The interesting thing you need to be more clear about is when is the end of the tribulation, and how much time between that and the time that we come out of Heaven to make war at the battle of Armageddon. It is true we do not know the exact day or hour of the rapture or 2nd Advent but, we can know the times and seasons.
As far as the rapture being pre-imminent is not completely true because the world’s situation of degradation has to come to a certain point, especially concerning Israel. We can see this happening right now. Henry Kissinger said, Obama was the one to lead the USA into the New World Order.
As far as Michelle is concerned she understand about the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God being main distinctions but, carries it over to the extreme in the early church because of Peter and the circumcision so heavily marked by the kingdom mentality.
If you would like to e-mail me you may do so at jerrykelso@gmail.com.
I have tried to be fair and I have given scriptural context and comparisons and sound hermeneutics to my best and I don’t believe there is nothing wrong with that. God bless you in your studies. Jerry kelso

16. Henry - March 25, 2012

Jerry,

Actually there is a link at the top on the About page where you can email me. Anyway, I did not want to prolong this conversation because in my view it is not going anywhere. You perhaps think I am thick headed because you are trying to show me something that I am either not seeing or refuse to see. You see some of the ideas you present are not new to me. Read my last comment in this thread for example in answer to the poster David and you will see what I mean. When you put Daniel’s 70th week into the future you create a serious problem when Isaiah 11 is considered. What you are saying to me is that Israel will be disperesed a third time – many teachers like John Hagee preach this today. This is why they support Israel because they believe that Israel needs to be formed as a state so it can be made desolate again thus fulfilling “prophecy” they say and hasten the return of Christ. Now we know that Israel has been dispersed or made desolate 2 times already. In Isaiah 11 though God said He was going to regather Israel the SECOND time and after this there will be peace in Jerusalem for they will not hurt or destroy anymore in His Holy mount. If God is going to gather Israel the second time how sayest you and all those who put the 70th week into the future that Israel will be made desolate a third time?

The other point of contention is the 144k Jews being the “male child” and Rev 12 being into the future. If the 144k were the male child when would they have been “raptured”? At the 6th seal when the heavens had departed as a scroll to reveal the Lamb of God. Now we know they were not raptured before the 6th seal because it was at this point they were sealed with the seal of God by the angels whilst they were still on the earth according to Rev 7. So then after the male child is “raptured” Israel flee’s into the dessert where she is nourished for 3.5 years (according to the theory), whilst the remnant of the seed of Israel who keeps God commandments and have the testimony of Jesus are left at the mercy of the 7 headed dragon to make war with them. Now all this is supposed to be happening when the wrath of the Lamb is about to be poured out immediately after the 144k (the supposed male child) is sealed and “raptured” at the 6th seal. Not to mention that the so-called tribulation saints are seen gathering around God’s throne at the 6th seal yet according to your conclusions the tribulation is running concurrent with the wrath of the Lamb (the trumpet judgements) which is being poured out during the 7th seal. This clearly does not add up. So believe my friend. I already studied and considered these and you will see I have made reference in previous responses to Don and others – difficult questions which they still are unable to answer and align to their view. Now I hope you can see the points I am making here.

17. hopeful_watcher - March 26, 2012

The only reason why I even engage in pre, mid and post debate is out of love and mercy. Personally I believe the debate is largely irrelevant in that if i am wisked away than I won’t much care. However, if we are to endure tribulation at the hands of man and escape the wrath of God, there will be many Luke warm Christians who will feel “left behind”. They will be unable to distinguish that one wrath is man made and another is God’s. They will lump it all together as suffering and call it wrath. They will feel foresaken by God and that will be a tragedy. They will require love, mercy and kindness to the highest degree by other brothers and sisters in Christ. The timing of the rapture will be self evident. The lingering pain will be real when it doesn’t happen. It is THEN our real work begins of lifting up our fellow Christians along with the great commision of fishing for the lost.

18. hopeful_watcher - March 26, 2012

One point of clarification. I find it largely irrelevant, but not entirely irrelevant. If it leads to deception of not knowing where salvation is to be found, then it could be critical. The only way I see that happening is if a false rapture were to happen, say our space brethren come down and sweep away 144k “enlightened” ones to be some astrological ambassadors, then some Christians could think they got the whole darn thing wrong and start believing false teachings of the AC.

19. Jerry kelso - March 28, 2012

Henry, The simple answer to Isaiah 11 is that the second time he recovers Israel is at the second advent. The first gathering of Israel was pictured in Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. They kept coming back until the Days of Christ. This is when Christ was to restore the physical Kingdom of Heaven but, sadly the Jews rejected Jesus spiritual Kingdom known as the Kingdom of God that comes without observation. Matthew 4:17; Luke 17:20; Matthew 23:37-39. The gathering are regathering are significant with the 1st Advent and 2nd Advent. Revelation 11:1-2 shows the temple in the tribulation for the angel is told to measure the temple and the altar and those that worship therein. As you know the jews don’t have a temple for them to worship in right now.
I am in disagreement not, contention, but, the truth is that just because the different classes of men on earth see the one that sitteth on the throne is no proof that the rapture or second advent occurs here. The great day of his wrath is come: and who shall be able to stand doesn’t necessarily mean the exact day of the second advent. The lamb is always seen in Heaven and never on earth. The wrath of the lamb is however beginning and it culminates in the trumpet judgements. The Bible specifically says that it is the wrath of God in Revelation 16 which is the wrath on the beast kingdom and the sixth vial in which the Euphrates River dries up to make way for the King’s of the east and all the other nations will join in at Armageddon v. 16. This is the 2nd advent. You have to recognize that the wrath of the lamb in Revelation 6 is the beginning of the tribulation wrath which is minor compared to Jacob’s trouble which begins in the middle of the tribulation and ends in the Wrath of God.
I’ve answered your impossible questions.
1. Wrath of the Lamb-Separate from the Wrath of God
2. Wrath of the Lamb-Beginning of the tribulation before the 144,000 are sealed and the Wrath of God leads into the Battle of Armageddon.
The 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal. Revelation 7:1-8. They are protected through the trumpet judgements. Revelation 9:4. They are not mentioned again until Revelation 14:1-5. How did they get to Heaven? The only ones raptured during this time frame are the man child. Revelation 12:1-6. Revelation 12:13 says: when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. This is present with the dragon (Satan) being cast out of Heaven so he could not accuse the brethren before the throne anymore. The man child is present tense because it is future (Revelation 1:19). Christ earthly life was in the past.
As far as the theory of 3.5 years is not a theory. Revelation 11:3 plainly states 1260 days the 2 witnesses prophecy. This is the same 1260 day or 42 months or 3 and 1 half years that Antichrist wars after Israel till God purges all the rebels completely out from the nation so they will turn to God and do his will. Ezekiel 20:33–38; Zechariah 13:9; Malachi 3:3.
You said tribulation saints were seen gathering round the throne at the 6th seal. It says this nowhere so you are clearly saying something that is completely false. It talks about the classes of men on earth hiding from the one sitting on the throne. Why did you make that statement? You know I didn’t say it. I have to assume because you believe that Revelation 6 is the advent then you were talking about Revelation 7 where the great multitude is and the tribulation saints.
The problem is you do not understand how the parenthetical works with the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets, and vials.
1. The seals, trumpets and vials run consecutively in order not alongside each other.
2. The parentheticals run in and around the seal, trumpets, and vials as a basic rule with some exceptions. I will use the 1st parenthetical as an example. The 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal to be prepared to go through the trumpet judgements. However, the Great Multitude with the tribulation saints and all in Heaven cannot be fulfilled at this time which is more than half way through the 1st part of the tribulation. These tribulation saints cover from the upper half of the 1st part of the tribulation to the 15th chapter which is right before the 7 vials of Revelation 16 which is toward the last half of the 2nd part of the tribulation known as Jacob’s trouble.
I have said these things so you will understand the hermeneutics behind it.
Your hermeneutics behind your Revelation 6:14-16 is to base it on Isaiah 2. You are free to believe what you like but, the only way for you to be right is to believe that Isaiah 2 happens on the exact Day of the Lord instead of the the period of the Day of the Lord which, is also the last 3.5 years of the tribulation which I have already discussed.
I have answered your impossible questions and shown you what my hermeneutics are so feel free to do the same thing in case I might have missed one.
One more question that you have not given me a direct answer is; Do you believe that on the Day of the Lord at the battle of Armageddon we are raptured there in the clouds, then go to Heaven and then suddenly come back to earth to do battle? Or do you believe that on the Day of the Lord at the battle of Armageddon we are rapture there in the clouds and then automatically go to earth to do battle? Answering these 2 questions will clear up much of what you believe and why. God bless! Jerry Kelso

20. Jerry kelso - March 29, 2012

Hopeful Watcher: 1. The church is not to go through the tribulation I believe is scriptural, but, I’m not going send anyone to hell if they believe another view.
2. The motive of thinking that the church is using a lazy man’s theology of escaping or doesn’t deserve to go through or any kind of condescending attitude is not scriptural. The Bible says to occupy until he comes. We are also to be like Paul who said I DIE DAILY, which meant he put his life on the line everyday for the cause of Christ and the hope of a physical resurrection.
3. The tribulation is about the purging of the jewish nation so they can get right with God according to the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This is because all of Israel must be saved in order to inherit the earthly kingdom which is the Kingdom of Heaven reign for 1000 years. Isaiah 2; 11; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 13:9 Matthew 4:17; Acts 2:26; Hebrews 87-13. All of these scriptures are to be understood in the light of the Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God as the earthly Kingdom, not the Heavenly Kingdom. Israel was promised to be the head of the nations in Isaiah 2. The church has a Heavenly calling but, will be in the earthly kingdom as Kings, Priests, and Rulers. We will also have universal assignments as well.
The whole message of Jesus to Israel was repentance; Matthew 4:17; Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Matthew 10:6-7; Go to the lost sheep of Israel with the KOH message. To teach this is a message for the church is to teach the church has good fish and bad fish and that we are backslidden and have to repent for salvation. Their is a true church and a professing church. This is the difference in Israel’s earthly calling and the Church known as one new man. 2 Timothy 2:9 says; If we suffer we shall reign and this is why the church is in rulership training right now to judge in the earthly KOH reign.
Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church but, most people believe the church is backslidden for the most part and has to go through tribulation to be presented without spot or blemish. The true church is perfected in Christ. This doesn’t mean that the professors in the church are not given a chance to repent and get right, but, this is in the church age. Revelation 2-3.
4. The reason you don’t see any markings of the church in Revelation 6-19 is because they are not there and the tribulation is about Jewish nation as a whole. There will be Jewish and Gentile believers both in the tribulation. Act 2:17-18; Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3. The wheat and tares will be both groups to be gathered and separated. Matthew 13.
The only resurrection at the end of the tribulation is right before the 7 vials in Revelation 16. Revelation 15 is the same group of tribulation saints as in Revelation 20:4-6a. This is the resurrection of the dead only; no living saints. So the post tribbers have to insert that the church is in there at the same time as these tribulation saints. There are other views but, I will stop there.
If your whole motive to be against is pre-trib rapture then you are most likely going on motives of people that don’t know the word. It is not the doctrine itself that makes messes people up with their extreme motives and ideas.
Mid-tribbers motives would seem to be that a great apostasy will come and is needful to separate the true church from the professors for us to be without spot or wrinkle. It is true there will be an apostasy; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 before the man of sin be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. The man of sin’s revealing is in the middle of the tribulation because he is shown in the temple showing that he is God. So the falling away and the Man of Sin being revealed happen in the middle of the tribulation which is before the 2nd Advent and not the rapture. The one that has to be taken out of the way is the restrainer who is: 1. The church; 2. The Holy Spirit; 3. Michael, the Archangel. The church is a restrainer and will literally be taken out by rapture. Matthew 5:13; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16; Ephesians 6:12-18; 2 Corinthians 10:4-7. The Holy Spirit will not be literally taken out but, will allow the Antichrist to begin his mission against saints. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7; Revelation 13:7 Michael, the archangel, because he stands up for Israel. Daniel 12:1
Now the hinderer of lawlessness according to Paul specifically that he talked about in 1 Thessalonians 2:5 being in 1 Thessalonians was the church. The whole book was to admonish the church in their daily living in their holiness walk with God. The Holy Spirit is mentioned once in this epistle directly and it is just about being given to the church. Michael is never mentioned. So when Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 don’t you remember I told you before he was speaking of the church and this is why mid-trib is not right.
Pre-tribbers use Revelation 4:1. This is scripturally sound according to the time factor of the book of Revelation 1:19. Write the thing you have seen (the vision of the 7 stars and the 7 Candlesticks) the things which are (the churches) and the things thereafter which was the throne room scene and the search of the Lion of Judah in Heaven who was worthy to open the book and the tribulation Revelation 6-19.
The historical churches was in John’s day and represents the whole of church age. This is because of what I’ve gone over as the Heavenly calling and too because it is before the hereafter in Revelation 4:1 which is future from the tribulation. Thus, scripturally pre-trib has just much scriptural basis and even more personally speaking than mid and post trib raptures.
People are free to believe what ever they want but, the argument against pre-trib rapture as a theory or a false teaching is truly ridiculous and has no scriptural basis for someone to say that. Most folks are either trying to exalt their own position because of their pre-conceived ideas or peoples actions or responses. No matter what side of the fence you are on, most would say that they don’t desire persecution now but, it doesn’t mean that we should have escape mentality to the extreme. The Bible says tribulation worketh patience, patience experience which bring hope that makes us not ashamed.
We ought to be ashamed of ourselves for many of these vices that we claim as being heretical that are not, It doesn’t mean that there aren’t some doctrines that go awry and thwart bad behavior but, this doesn’t fall into that category. People need to get real and realize God calls us to faithful at all times. At the same time there is no wrong for not wanting to go through the tribulation when you understand how degraded society will get and how awful and horrendous it might be to live like a fugitive. Yet there will be believers in the tribulation and will be filled with the Holy Spirit and have a revival. Acts 2:17-19 bears this out. I’ve said my peace. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

21. hopeful_watcher - March 30, 2012

Jerry, that was quite a long assessment and all of that to impune my motives. I already told you my motives. My motives are not based on any specific interpretation of scripture, because I doubt there will ever be agreement on this topic until it proves itself out. I never implied your views were heretical. I think studying God’s word is crucial, but if we get some of it wrong it wont damn us. I never said I believe the church must go through some kind of penance. I am not in the grace business, that is God’s domain. Who in there right mind would WANT to go through tribulation. This is for God to determine and not me. The same goes with the apostasy as far as whether we will be present or not.

Bottomline is our interpretation of prophecy will have no affect on God’s plan and how that prophecy will play out. If we want to debate the different interpretations so that we are better prepared, that is fine, but it is not what motivates me on the subject.

At the risk of being redundant, I state my motivation again. My motivation is love. If pretrib turns out to be correct, we’ll all celebrate in heaven alongside Jesus. However, if the rapture doesn’t happen and the tribulation band marches on, there will be some very disillusioned brothers and sisters who will need lifting up because they will feel “left behind”. They will feel foresaken, when God never forsakes us… Even in times of tribulation.

So, what motivates you to debate the subject?

22. bortmann - March 30, 2012

Actually the timing of a pre, mid, or post tribulation resurrection (rapture) of the elect aren’t taught in scripture. According to Jesus, His coming will come after the sun moon and stars go out (6th seal) (Mat. 24:29, Rev 6:12-14) sometime after the middle of the seven years (70th week of Daniel) (Dan. 9:27, Mat. 24:15) no man knows the exact day or hour (Mat. 24:36)

23. bortmann - March 30, 2012

As we speak most born again pastors are teaching the coming of the Lord is drawing near, at any moment (Mat. 24:4-5) Jesus warns believers not to follow after them. Why? Because the Antichrist must invade Jerusalem before Christians are gathered to heaven during the coming of the Son of Man, no man knows the day or hour. (Mat. 24:15-36)

24. Jerry kelso - March 30, 2012

Hopeful Watcher, I’m not upset and I agreed with your motives that it doesn’t come into play whether we go up pre-mid-post. I wasn’t aiming at you personally about being thinking I was heretical. I was pointing at the ones who go out of there way to say a particular position is heretical because they think that it makes people respond in the wrong way. In this case, the issue is that people who believe pre-trib are false teachers and the position makes people lazy and cause people to be disappointed if they are looking and it doesn’t happen. That is just not true according to the scripture.
My motivation is always love and to study the word, because this is one way to understand Christ and his purpose and destiny for our lives through his Redemptive plan of salvation and understand the context of subjects. The reason for most people’s arguments is because they don’t understand hermeneutics.
Prophecy is considered subjective and to disagree on 1 point is not necessarily a shattering of false teaching or will not necessarily knock your salvation. However,the way a person interprets Revelation can determine how they interpret the whole Bible.
Paul said, we are to same the thing so there be no divisions among us. We are not perfect in our knowledge and we will not always agree on every jot and tittle but, there is much that divides us that we need to understand and be united in.
There is certainly nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, but, we always need to be willing to reason and challenge and move towards certain subjects that are vital to us as christians. We are not to be ignorant of Satan’s devices and he has all kinds of ways to trip us up, especially when it comes to making sure we stay divided on what the word says. He lied from the beginning with Eve and trust me he knows how to lie to us and keep us ignorant and divided.
Again, I am sorry if it sounded like I was dumping on you because I am not dumping on anybody. It’s about contending for the faith and stating the truth in it’s proper perspective according to the word. There are too many people that see others react wrongly and say ridiculous things to the extreme and so others will automatically believe they act that way because of there position. There are other subjects that people do respond wrong because of incorrect exegesis and human intellect but, pre-trib rapture is not one of them.
It is important why people believe what they believe and people need to understand hermeneutics so they know why the Bible says what it says in the way it says it. A post on hermeneutics is always helpful to understand different positions and is a step in the right direction of exegesis and coming closer for christians to say the same thing. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

25. Jerry kelso - March 30, 2012

Bortmann, Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-14 are not the same time factors. Matthew passage is the 2nd Advent when Christ comes back after the tribulation days. This is not the same as the rapture of the church. Revelation 6 passage is just the 1st part of the tribulation because the seals are opened one at a time, as well as the trumpets, and the vials, which means they follow one after the other. You are correct that no one knows the day or hour even though we know the time and seasons 2 Thessalonians 5. This also includes the rapture we are just told to be ready.
Matthew 24 is explaining not to listen to people who say they are Christ was being spoken about the state of those days before Christ comes back. He was also primarily speaking to jews in that future day. The gospel of the kingdom is not about the church propagating the gospel in that context. It is the message of the Messiah coming back and establishing the earthly kingdom and overcoming the nations of the world. The church will be gone and be in Heaven. Revelation 4:1 Revelation 11:18; Revelation 19:7-10.
People believe that the church today has to bring the kingdom in by propagating the gospel. The Kingdom of Heaven is no work of man, but only of God. It doesn’t make no sense for the church to bring the kingdom in by preaching the gospel when Revelation 19:11-15 says, we come out of Heaven with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to make war at the battle of Armageddon.
So, yes, Christ is coming back at the 2nd Advent with his saints but, not for his saints because they will have already been in Heaven for 7 Years prior. God bless! Jerry Kelso

26. Henry - March 31, 2012

Jerry Kelso,

Lets stick to the one point on which we agree. I agree with you that the second gathering of Israel will be at the Lord’s coming (or there abouts) but after which they will not be scattered or made desolate again as Isaiah 11 says. Here is the problem then. If the 70th week is to be fulfilled at a future time then this would mean that Israel would need to regather a “second” time prior to this week. For this “future” prophecy to be fulfilled therefore then God must sanction if not directly gather Israel before the 70th week occurs. Yes? So how can God gather Israel a second time prior to the 70th week and gather then again a “second” time at Christ’s coming (2nd advent)? Do the math and tell if me if this makes sense? Israel was first made desolate during the Babylonian exile. Israel was then regathered leading up to Christ’s first coming. Israel was then made desolate the SECOND time in 70 A.D. by the Roman Army and there was not a state of Israel until 1948 because they were scattered. So in order for the 70th week to be fulfilled (according to your futurist position) Israel would need to regather and the temple would need to be rebuilt. According to the prophecy in Daniel 9 the people of the prince which shall come shall make war with Israel and shall make it desolate. Israel will therefore be dispersed a THIRD time. So did Isaiah make a mistake when he prophesied that God would gather Israel a SECOND time at the coming of Christ when we have Israel being made desolate a THIRD time during the “future” 70th week?

Please do not bother to post a long drawn out commentary in your reply. Please stick to the point at hand.

Point to note: In your response you accused me of speaking falsely concerning the “tribulation saints”. Firstly, I am not the one who stylise the great multitude who came out of great tribulation as “tribulation saints”. This is what pre and mid tribulationists call this multitude which is why I refer to them as such. In my view the whole church are effectively “tribulation saints” because Paul says through much tribulation must we enter into the kingdom of God. Consequently all those who are in Christ and keep His testimony are all part of the one body, the Church. But this is an aside so please stick to the point above.

27. Jerry kelso - March 31, 2012

Henry, I am going to say this about Isaiah 11 and the recovering of the nation of Israel a second time again.
The regathering of Ezra, Nehemiah, and all the way to the Lord coming to earth was the first gathering. The second will be in the tribulation. Read Ezekiel 37 and the valley of the dry bones.
These 2 Gatherings have to do with the time of the Kingdom of Heaven being at hand. Israel rejected Christ offer of the Kingdom of Heaven (physical) Matthew 23:37-39. The second gathering will be in regards to Ezekiel 37 and Judah and Israel will become one stick.
Surely you understand what I am saying when I say the 2 gatherings have to do with the Kingdom of Heaven being at hand.
Where you are going wrong is you are trying to filter all these other desolations and gatherings in with it. ie (70 A.D.) and 1948, etc.
You can disagree but, this is scriptural and sticks with the point of the whats and whens of the program with Israel being purged. After all, this is the basic point of the tribulation.
Daniel 9:25 and 26 are fulfilled but, verses 24 and 27 are not. So there is no math to do and the 70th week of Daniel is in line with the tribulation period and doesn’t effect either way the 2nd advent being the 2nd regathering.
I have stated the point about the 2 gatherings without other things to get in the way and your objections. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

28. bortmann - April 1, 2012

The ONLY supposed pre-trib verse in the entire Bible is the verse in Rev. 4:1. And NO WHERE does that verse even hint, let alone mention, that the corporate Church will be raptured at that time. That verse is not about the corporate Church, but about the Apostle John being taken to the third heaven to witness the events of the Revelation.

29. bortmann - April 1, 2012

Many pastors blindly teach John represents the rapture of the church in Rev. 4:1. The problem with this teaching is John is back on earth between the 6th and 7th trumpets of Gods wrath in Rev. 10:1. Does this mean the bride returns here during Gods wrath and not on the first day of Christ’s 1000 year reign in Rev 21:9-10? Of course not! There is no resurrection/rapture in Rev 4:1!!! The rapture of a great multitude out of the great tribulation is in Rev 7:9-14!!!

30. Henry - April 1, 2012

Jerry,
It is either you are “blind” or you are being deliberately dishonest with the scriptures. The clear implication of the 70th week being fulfilled in the future is that a third temple will be rebuilt. How can the temple be rebuilt without Israel regathering and how can Israel be made desolate if they haven’t regathered? This is the reason why evangelical christians are supporting Israel at the present time because their view is that the state of Israel must come into fruition for the anti-christ to then make them desolate again for the third time after the abomination of desolation is set up. Let me ask you this, after the Babylonian exile, Israel were regathered and this is what Daniel 9 speaks of and which was fulfilled in the days of Nehemiah. So when does scripture say they were going to be made desolate a second time? Luke 21:20 clearly tells us and since Titus’ army entered Jerusalem in 70 AD Israel were scattered (made desolate) for the second time. Whether you want to factor in what is taking place since 1948 or not the clear implication of a future 70wk is that Israel will regather and then be scattered a third time and this contradicts Isa 11. Does Rev 12 not say that the woman flees into the dessert and the dragon cast a flood (flood here means armies as per Dan 11:22) out of its mouth after her? All this takes place before the 2nd regathering at the 2nd advent. If you can’t see this or you are not prepared to admit it then we have nothing more to discuss on this topic.

31. Henry - April 1, 2012

Bortmann,
In order for them to make their conclusions they have to rely upon assumptions rather than what scripture actually says. One of these assumptions is because the word church doesn’t appear again after Rev 4 then it is assumed that the church has been raptured. Scripture clearly says that Jesus will raise the dead who are in Him on the last day. When is this day? No one knows. Heb 9:28 again says those who look for Christ will He appear to the second time unto salvation and we know His appearance is “after the tribulation of those days”. If someone wants to assume that the wrath of the Lamb is the same as the tribulation, let them.

bortmann - April 1, 2012

There is only one gathering by the Son of Man at His coming. Angels will gather the dead in Christ, souls from heaven, before gathering the elect from earth. (Mark 13:26-27, Matt 24:30-31, 1 Thes 4:14-17).

When the Messiah hides His remnant after splitting the Mount of Olives, there is no resurrection (Rev. 10:1-7, Zech. 14:4-5).

When the Word of God appears in heaven at the battle of Armageddon there is no resurrection (Rev. 16:14-16; 19:11-21).

When the Lamb of God descends with His Bride inside the New Jerusalem there is no resurrection (Rev. 21:9-10).

32. bortmann - April 1, 2012

The scriptures teach the 2nd coming consists of four major events that take place at different times, for different reasons, each having a different result.

1. The coming of the Son of Man will gather the dead in Christ and those alive during the great tribulation between the opening of the 6th and 7th seals (Mat. 24:29-31, 1 Thes. 4:14-17, Rev. 6:12-17; 7:9-14)

2. The physical return of the Messiah will fulfill the mystery of God, the salvation of Israel between the sounding of the 6th and 7th trumpets. (Dan. 9:24, Rom. 11:25-27, Acts 1:6-11, Rev. 10:1-7),

3 .The appearing in heaven by the Word of God and His armies of angels at the supper of the great God, Armageddon will take place after the pouring out of the 7th bowl in Rev 16:17-21 and 19:11-21!

4. The descent inside the New Jerusalem by the Lamb of God and His bride (Rev. 21:9-10) will complete His 2nd coming on the first day of His 1000 year reign over the nations (Rev 20:6)!

33. bortmann - April 1, 2012

The scriptures teach the 2nd coming consists of four major events: Saints, let me ask you, most Christians quote the coming of the Son of Man, no man knows the day or hour, as the rapture. Amen, this is true. Yet according to Jesus the Abomination of Desolation must invade Jerusalem in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel in v15, the coming of the Son of Man isn’t till v30-31. So how can Jesus come at any moment before the 70th week of Daniel even begins? The answer is He wont!

34. Henry - April 2, 2012

Bortmann,
I will pose the same question or dilemma I posed to Jerry in my last response to Him. If the 70wk is future, how can Israel be made desolate for at least a third time yet Isa 11 says God gathers them a second time and there is no room for them to scattered again after this second regathering? Whether this happens towards Christ second coming or at His coming is neither here nor there but the implication is very clear. The clear implication of a future abomination of desolation is that Israel will be gathered and disperesed a third time but this is clearly at odds with Isa 11.

The other point to note is that any future temple constituted by Israel will not be the “temple of God”. The temple of God today is the Church (2 Cor 6:16 etc). A reconstituted temple by Israel with its sacrifices and oblations would be an abomination in the face of the cross. God has already made a NEW COVENANT with Israel thus setting aside the first.

The abomination of desolation is already fulfilled and this is evident from conflating Matt 24 with Luke 21. Israel being encamped about with armies in Luk 21 is a direct reflection of Matt 24’s abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. To say that Dan 9:26 is fulfilled but verse 27 is not – leaving a gap of more than 2000 years does not do justice to scripture. Verse 27 is a continuation of the previous verses evidenced by the use of the word “and” at the start of the verse.

35. bortmann - April 2, 2012

In the Days of the Great Tribulation of the saints by the Beast (Mat. 24:21-22, Rev. 13:5-7), from the middle of the 70th week (Mat. 24:15) til the gathering of overcomers (Rev. 7:9-14, 15:2) by angels at the coming of the Son of Man (v30-39), an angel from heaven will proclaim the gospel to every nation. (Rev. 14:6-7) This is the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy concerning His coming back (Mat. 24:14) The gospel will be preached as a witness to all the nations and then the end (of the age) will come. The end of the age is the harvest (Mat. 13:39-43) of the elect at the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:30-31; 25:31, 13:39, 16:27)

36. bortmann - April 2, 2012

What about the adding or taking away from the prophecy of The Revelation of Jesus Christ? (Rev 22:18-19) The main subject of this prophecy are the events taking place before, during, and after His coming, the timing of His coming, and the consequences of His coming. Anyone who adds or takes away Jesus promises to take away their part on the Book of Life and the Holy City (Holy Jerusalem)!!!!

37. Henry - April 3, 2012

Bortmann,
I do not think that I am adding anything to the scriptures. Rather I am questioning whether you and Jerry and others have your interpretations correct. In my view those who put the 70th week into the future are the ones adding to prophecy and I do not say that lightly. If we simply look at Matt 24 and Luk 21 we can discern that the abomination of desolation has been fulfilled already. Whether we know what the abomination itself is does not matter but if we follow the line of scripture we can see clearly that that event has long passed. How do I know this? Well lets look at Matt 24 briefly.

At the beginning of the passage Jesus warned the disciples that the temple as it existed at that time (not a future temple) would be destroyed:

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In response to this saying of Jesus the disciples enquired as to when should these things be fulfilled. But note that the disciples asked several questions:

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first question was, ‘when shall these things be?’ In other words they were asking Jesus to tell them when the temple buildings would be destroyed. Before answering this question Jesus started out by giving them an overview of the events that should happen leading up to the times of the end and then we get to verse 15 where He says:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Because Jesus gave an outline of the future before answering the question of when the existing temple buildings would be destroyed, it is assumed by many readers He was placing the abomination of desolation thousands of years into the future. Hence the reason why the 70th week is placed into the future. Luke’s account however should help us to understand the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings.

Luke 21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This part of the prophecy tells us that Jerusalem would be made desolate again and that it would be trodden down of the Gentiles and that Israel shall be led away captive into all nations. By interpretation we know that this is what Daniel spoke of in Dan 9:26-27 and that the desolation of Jerusalem takes place after the abomination of desolation is set up. Question: When did the desolation of Jerusalem take place and the temple buildings destroyed and Israel driven out and became captives into all nations? Well history clearly bears out that this occurred in 70 AD by Titus Vespasian’s army. Why then do we push this prophecy concerning the desolation of Jerusalem into the future? Isn’t it therefore clear that if Luk 21:20-24 is for a future time (presumably in a future 70th week) that Israel would need to have re-gathered a second time following the 70 AD desolation? Would this therefore not mean that Isreal would be dispersed a third time? But such a view would be incompatible with Isaiah 11 which clearly implies that when God gathers Israel the second time they will not be made desolate again.
If we concentrate on Daniel 9 alone it becomes clear that Israel would be rebuilt unto Messiah but then following this rebuilding the prophecy makes clear that the city and the temple as they existed at that time would again be destroyed and made desolate. Daniel does not speak of two desolations after the rebuilding had taken place. Similarly, from before the time Jesus ascended into Heaven He spoke of only one other time that Israel would again be scattered and made desolate. This second desolation clearly took place in 70 A.D. To ignore these facts would imply that 70 A.D. did not occur yet since. So who is it that is adding or taking away from scripture? The Revelations does not speak of a “70th week” but somehow one is being inserted there.

38. bortmann - April 3, 2012

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44)

No one can come to the Son unless His Father draws them. Those who believe in Jesus will be raised up on the last day (John 6:40). The last day is the day of the Lord. According to Jesus, the coming for His elect and the pouring out of the wrath of God are back-to-back events (Mat. 24:37-39). The day the saints are delivered, the judgment of the wicked will erupt (Luke 17:30). This means God’s wrath will begin within twenty-four hours after the wrath of Satan is cut short by the resurrection of the elect.

39. bortmann - April 3, 2012

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Mat. 24:29-30)

The heavenly event of the 6th seal will precede both the coming of the Son of Man and the day of the Lord (Acts 2:20, Mat. 24:29, Rev. 6:12-13). (Chart-The Seven Seals) Once the righteous are gathered before the throne; the Lord will pour out His wrath on the wicked. This proves His wrath will follow the coming of the Son of Man (Mat. 24:37-39). After comparing what the prophets warned about this day, you may ask why ministers hardly ever teach on it. Peter warns this day will come like a thief in the night to a world living in darkness (2 Pet. 3:10). Yet Paul urges believers not to forsake assembling together as they see this day approaching (Heb. 10:25). A fearful expectation of judgment awaits those who don’t (Heb. 10:31). So how can we see this day of wrath approaching if it comes as a thief (1 Thes. 5:2-6)? The overcomers will know His coming is near when the heavens go dark (Luke 21:25-28, Mat. 24:29). On one side of the world the sun will turn black. On the other side the moon will turn red and the stars will not give their light (Isa. 13:9-11). After the elect are gathered, the day of the Lord will begin with fire (Rev. 8:7). According to Jesus, His coming and His wrath are back to back events (Luke 17:24-30).

40. bortmann - April 3, 2012

). When Jesus says ‘after the tribulation of these days’, He is referring to the first five seals on the outside of the heavenly scroll. Jesus will open the 4th seal in the middle of the 70th week (Rev. 6:7-8, Mat. 24:9-15). The Son of Man will come back after He opens the 6th seal (Mark 13:24-27). This proves the gathering up of the elect at His coming must happen sometime in the second half of the 70th week; no man knows the exact day or hour (Mat. 24:36). Jesus is referring to the tribulation of the first 5 seals. After the persecution of these events Jesus will open the 6th seal and the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father and His angels. The term tribulation period was created by pre trib teachers. The sequence is the beginning of sorrows, the great tribulation, the day of the Lord and the millennium. The great tribulation will be cut short by His coming (Mat. 24:21-31) Gbu Paul

Henry - April 4, 2012

Bortmann, I agree with some of what you are saying but why is it that you believe the 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled in the future? Does time opperate like that – I mean 69 weeks fulfilled then the 70th week thousands of years later? Those who argue for a future 70th week claims that Dan 9:26 has been fulfilled and that the “prophetic clock” stopped at the end of 69 weeks. This in itself is a huge contradiction. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined At what point within the 70 weeks was Messiah cut? Note the previous verse said that time period to restore and build the city to Messiah was 69 weeks. So after 69 weeks Messiah is cut off. So is Messiah being cut off within the “gap” in time when the prophetic clock has stopped? In addition, at what point in the prophetic timeline did the people of the prince that would come would destroy the city and the sanctuary? Did this take place in the “gap” after the “prophetic clock” has stopped? How can the prophetic clock stop at 69 weeks yet the prophecy is expected to continue after this period during the supposed gap in time? This amounts to confusion. In my view the scripture did not say that the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed within the 70 weeks. But we cannot have a “gap” yet the prophecy continues into the “gap”. I think it is worthwhile having another look at this.

bortmann - April 4, 2012

Henry, Jesus was crucified in 32 AD. The 69th week ended when the precious Lamb of God was cut off. The 70th week would have ended 7 years later in 39 AD.

“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.” (Dan. 9:24)
Gabriel tells Daniel God has decreed a chastisement of the Jewish
people by her Gentile enemies for seventy weeks. One week represents seven years (70×7=490 years). One year equals 360 days (Rev. 11:2-3). At the end of this seventy week chastisement, the Most Holy will physically return and take away the sins of Israel. Clearly this did not take place in 39 AD. The return of our Messiah a second time is still future (Heb 9:28, Acts 1:6-11, Rom 11:25-27, Rev 10:1-7)

bortmann - April 4, 2012

The 70th week will end three and a half years later. On this day, many from Israel will be waiting for their Messiah to return a second time for their salvation (Heb. 9:28, Zech. 13:9). After the times of the Gentiles ends, the Deliverer will return and save a remnant of Israel (Rom. 11:25-27, Zech. 14:2).
After hearing these five prophetic events Daniel did not understand (Dan. 12:8). That’s because this prophecy has been sealed up till the time of the end (Dan. 12:9). Discerning the consequences involving the 70th week will be for believers that experience them (Mat. 24:33-35). Now let’s review the events Gabriel gave Daniel in the order they take place.
1. In Daniel 9:26, the angel predicted the very day the Messiah was killed. From the order to rebuild Jerusalem to His death was 69 weeks. At the end of 483 years of Gentile domination, Jesus was crucified on Passover (Mat. 26:1-2). On that day, 69 of the 70 weeks were fulfilled.
2. In A.D. 70, Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem and the sanctuary (Jer. 52:13-30, Dan. 9:26, Mat. 24:1-2). Because of their rejection of the Messiah, the Jewish people were scattered among the nations (Neh. 1:8). This was called the Great Diaspora (Deut. 28:64-65).
3. The 70th week of Daniel will begin when a world leader (Antichrist) confirms a seven year covenant with Israel and her Muslim neighbors (Dan. 9:27a). For the first half of the 70th week the Jewish people will be living in peace (Ezek. 38:11).
4. In the middle of the 70th week, the one who makes desolate will break this covenant by invading an unsuspecting Jerusalem with his armies (Dan. 9:27, Matthew 24:15, Luke 21:20, Ezekiel 38:1-12).
5. The final event Gabriel predicted involves the Holy One (Messiah) returning at the end of the 70th week. From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Neh. 2:5), the Jewish people will suffer seventy weeks of Gentile domination (Dan. 9:24). Once the 70th week ends, the Messiah will come back and save Israel (Rom. 11:25-27, Rev. 10:1-7).

41. Jerry kelso - April 4, 2012

Henry, I am neither blind or dishonest. Let me ask you a question. What is the temple in Jerusalem in Revelation 11? Why is the jewish nation in the wilderness in Revelation 12? Why is the remnant scattered in Revelation 12? Why does Zechariah 13 say that 2/3 of the jewish nation will cut off and die and 1/3 will come through the fire?
These clearly show that the tribulation in the last days is all about the Jewish nation being purged and not the church, for the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Israel has not been trodden down ever since their rejection of Jesus and his ministry,(Matthew 23:37-39). That there will be a temple built and be desolated in middle of the tribulation is clear in Revelation 11. It also says that the Holy City which is Jerusalem will be trodden down for 42 months which is 3.5 years. Can you explain what your interpretation is or will you just explain this away? You have not answered me on this yet. As far as how can the temple be rebuilt if there is not a regathering and such is a ridiculous question. The jews have a nation right now and they still have jews coming back all the time. The antichrist will make a 7 year pact with Israel to protect them so it is plain to see that the temple can be safely built during the 1st half of the tribulation. Some believe that the 2 witnesses are in the 1st half of the tribulation and they will protect Israel and the rebuilding of the temple. Revelation 11 says to measure the temple, the altar and them that worship therein. You need to tell me what you believe about these scriptures to go further in the discussion because all you are doing is bringing up non-sensical objections. The jews have a nation now and will until the antichrist desolates it in the middle of the tribulation.
Bortmann seems to believe that Christ will come back between the 6th and 7th seals and he thinks the mystery of God is the 2nd advent. Do you believe this? The truth is that the mystery of God is in the 7th trumpet days and I agree with that but, it is the accuser of the brethren being cast out of heaven never to accuse no more, not the 2nd advent. The reason is the coming of the kingdom was not a secret to the jews and any of the old testament scriptures that deal with the Kingdom of Heaven on earth which the 2nd advent ushers in.
Respectfully, you need to explain a little bit of what the tribulation is about and the jews and the gentiles and the church and etc.
I’ll say one more thing in closing, that the Antichrist whole objective is to destroy Israel and he will gain a little of Jerusalem Revelation 11:1-3; but, tidings out of the east and north will keep him occupied Daniel 11:35 and this is why he will not be able to destroy all of Jerusalem and has to have help. The east is oriental countries like China, for sure; Revelation 16:12 and north would be Russia; Ezekiel 38:1-3. You have to remember that every country is not with the Antichrist in the beginning and that is why he has to conquer them before he can get them to meet with him at the battle of Armageddon at the 2nd advent. If you answer these questions of what you believe then I can I give you a better assessment on my reply for you. Jerry Kelso

bortmann - April 4, 2012

“For then there will be Great Tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Mat. 24:21-22)
During the Great Tribulation the Antichrist will be assaulting believers (Rev. 13:7; 14:12). For the sake of the elect, Jesus promises to shorten these days. If He didn’t, no believing flesh would be saved. This is why this persecution will not last the entire second half of the 70th week. It will be shortened when angels gather believers from the earth at His coming (Mat. 24:29-31, Rev. 7:9-14). Gabriel foretold the Messiah will physically return to earth at the end of the 70th week (Dan. 9:24). So this seven year period can’t be shortened. Nor can the day of the Lord (Rev. 15:1). The only way to amputate the Great Tribulation is by removing the object of persecution to heaven (Rev. 7:9-14; 15:2).

42. bortmann - April 4, 2012

According to Jesus, His coming consists of four events.

It was the Son of Man who promised to deliver His elect from the wrath of God (Mat. 24:21-39; 16:27).

It was the Messiah who promised to redeem a remnant from Israel (Jer. 31:31, Isa. 10:20, Rom. 11:25-27, Rev. 10:1-7).

It was the Word of God who promised to consume His enemies (Rev. 16:14-16; 19:11-21).

It was the Lamb of God who promised to rule with His bride for a thousand years (Rev. 20:6; 21:2-10).

43. Jerry kelso - April 4, 2012

Bortmann, You say i merely assume. Is it anymore assuming than for you to say that the second advent is the rapture when it is never said to be one. Revelation 20:3-6 talks about the resurrection of the dead from the tribulation. This is an old testament doctrine recorded in Hebrews 6:2. The Jews understood this as in John 11:23. The jews did not understand about the death and resurrection of Christ lot alone the resurrection of believers of those who are alive and remain. This mystery was given to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and this is why it is called a mystery, just like the church was called a mystery to the jewish nation in Ephesians 3:3-6. This is why Peter was shocked at the vision of the clean and unclean. Acts 10:13. This is why it is stated in Hebrews 6:2 as the resurrection of the dead. This is why in Revelation 20 you only have the dead in the first resurrection. If there were a rapture of those who are alive and remain and the dead being caught up together at the second advent then, there would be no remnant at all for they would be caught up.
Your interpretation of the mystery of God is not correct. It is not the rapture at the second advent because that was no mystery to the old testament saints. It is in the 7th trumpet days according to Revelation 10:6-7; and which, the accuser of the brethren is cast out of heaven and can never accuse them anymore according to Revelation 12:10-12.
I understand why Revelation 11:15 is said to be the actual fulfillment of the 2nd Advent which is not unnoticed for the second woe ends with the earthquake and the 2 witnesses raptured which seem to be at the end of the tribulation days and Revelation 10 and 11 say begin to sound, the Mystery of God is finished. The only way for this to be possible is if the seals and trumpets, and vials are not opened consecutively. John reveals the order as seals opened first, trumpets, opened second, and the vials third. So if you have an answer I am willing to listen.
The 70 weeks you mentioned ended in A.D. 70 and this is what preterists believe. This is incorrect because the 70 weeks deal with the Kingdom of Heaven message and Christ did not come back in 70 A.D. Daniel 9:24 and vs 27 are not fulfilled. Israel is still backslidden today for they are blinded to the truth. Romans 11:25-26. Hebrews 8:7-13 shows they have to come back and will come back to Christ. Israel has not done this as a nation. Jerry Kelso

bortmann - April 4, 2012

There are a growing number of pastors teaching the resurrection of
the elect will take place at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. They believe the last trumpet blown at the coming of the Lord is the seventh trumpet (1 Thes. 4:16, 1 Cor. 15:52). They teach the two Witnesses represent the church. When the seventh trumpet sounds they believe the church will be resurrected and ascend into heaven in a cloud. They are convinced the mystery of God in Revelation 10:7 is the rapture described in Revelation 11:15. This interpretation has four critical errors.

First, the mystery of the saints receiving incorruptible bodies will take place exactly when the trumpet of God sounds (1 Cor. 15:50-52, Mat. 24:30-31, 1 Thes. 4:15-17). The mystery of God in Revelation 10:7 is completed before the seventh trumpet sounds. Which means the seventh trumpet can’t be the same trumpet blown at the coming of the Lord (1 Thes. 4:15-16, Mat. 24:30-31).

Second; it will be God who sounds the last trumpet at the resurrection of His elect (1 Cor. 15:52, I Thes 4:16). In The Revelation of Jesus Christ angels sound all seven trumpets.

Third; there is no scripture that says the two Witnesses represent the body of Christ.

Fourth, those washed in the blood of the Lamb are delivered out of the Great Tribulation between the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 7:9-17). In contrast, the two Witnesses go up to heaven during the day of the Lord between the sixth and seventh trumpets (Rev. 11:12).

These events take place at different times; each having different results. (Chart-The Second Coming of Christ) There is no resurrection before the 70th week begins, in the middle, or at the end. Without a doubt, Satan is using this debate as a smoke screen to prevent many from understanding the eternal consequences of the coming of the Son of Man.

44. bortmann - April 4, 2012

“His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.” (Rev. 19:12-13)

His eyes are like a flame of fire. On His head are many crowns. He’s wearing a robe dipped in blood. The Rider is called the Word of God. This is a different event than the Holy One coming back to fulfill the mystery of God (Rev. 10:1-7, Rom. 11:25-27). Let’s compare these two events and see their differences.

The Messiah will return to earth before the seven bowls are poured out (Rev. 10:1-7; 16:1-21). The Word of God appears after they are poured out (19:11-21).

The Messiah will return with a rainbow on His head (Rev. 10:1). The Word of God will appear with many crowns on His head (Rev. 19:12).

When the Messiah returns He will set His feet on the land (Rev. 10:2). When the Word of God appears, it will be in heaven not on earth (Rev. 19:11).

The Messiah will return in a cloud to restore the kingdom of Israel (Rev. 10:1, Acts 1:9). The Word and His armies will war against the Beast and His armies (Rev. 19:19).

Clearly, these two events take place at different times, having different results.

45. bortmann - April 4, 2012

Between the sixth and seventh trumpets, the Messiah (Deliverer) will physically descend from heaven in a cloud to fulfill the mystery of God, the salvation of Israel (Acts 1:6, Rom. 11:25-27)

“And that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:20-21)

The restoration of all things is a new heaven and a new earth in which the Lord God will rule forever. (Isa. 65:17, 2 Pet. 3:13)

“There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.” (Rev. 22:5)

The Lord will begin this restoration by spiritually saving a remnant from Israel (Rev. 10:7, Zech. 14:2). This can’t be the coming of the Son of Man which took place after the 6th seal (Mat. 24:29-31). This can’t be the appearing of the Word of God which won’t take place until the seventh bowl is poured out (Rev. 19:11-21, Dan. 12:11). This can’t be the Lamb of God descending in the New Jerusalem which comes forty-five days later (Rev. 21:9-10, Dan. 12:12).

46. Jerry kelso - April 4, 2012

Bortmann, Starting with your last reply, first.
1. You are wrong about the Mystery of God being the Messiah physically descending from Heaven in a cloud. Read this carefully, The restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven that John the Baptist and Jesus preached to the jews was no mystery to the jews. Acts 1:6-7. This is why the disciples asked if Christ would restore the kingdom at that time. He said it wasn’t for them to know. You need to quit saying your opinion unless you have another reason for it being a mystery. Acts 3:20 was a plain statement from Peter about the Kingdom being restored.
The New Heaven and the New Earth in Revelation 21 is separate from the restoration of the beginning of the millennial kingdom.
I agree that the spiritual restoration for Israel will be at the Second Advent. Zechariah 14:2 bears this out about all nations being gathered to do battle against Israel. There is no coming of the Son of man after the 6th seal. Revelation 19:11-21; Daniel 12:1 will be after the 7 vials; Revelation 16. The descending of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9-10 is 1000 years later after the beginning of the kingdom. Revelation 20 shows the 1st resurrection and rulership places being taken In vs 3-6. Verse 6 also talks about the resurrection of the wicked 1000 years after the kingdom has started. Verse 1 had already talked about Satan in the bottomless pit for 1000 years in verse 2. War of Gog and Magog and the Great White Throne Judgement for the wicked happens after the 1000 years and Satan and his armies are defeated and he is thrown into the lake of fire with the Antichrist and the false prophet. This proves that the 2nd advent happened 1000 years before this war. Then after the Great White Throne Judgment for the wicked, the New Heaven and the New Earth are next and then the Holy City coming down out of Heaven so God will be all in All. 1 Corinthians 15:28. The millennial kingdom the earthly Kingdom of Heaven rule and reign with the Messiah. The fulfillment of the earthy sphere being in complete harmony with the physical Universal Kingdom of God will not be totally fulfilled till after all his enemies are put down. 1 Corinthians 15:28. Jerry Kelso

47. Jerry kelso - April 4, 2012

Bortmann, You are wrong again. The Messiah and the Word of God are the same. John 1:1. There comings are at the same time and for the same purpose. Revelation 16:15-16; Revelation 19:11-15; 16-21.
Read all the gospels especially Matthew. John the Baptist and Jesus preached; Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand! Israel rejected Jesus, Matthew 23:37-39. They were backslidden then, they still are backslidden now, and they will be backslidden in the tribulation until the end when they get their hearts rights spiritually and God saves them from the clutches of the Antichrist and then he establishes the kingdom and they are made the head of the nations. Read Daniel 9:24, Hebrews 8:7-13; Isaiah 2:2-4. Jerry Kelso

48. Jerry kelso - April 4, 2012

Bortmann, Revelation 10 covers is happening before the 7th trumpet which is in the middle of the tribulation. Revelation 10:7. It also covers Revelation 11:3-12; and Revelation 11:13-14. So it does cover events of the 2nd half of the tribulation as well. The scripture you referred to in verse 2 about his feet on the land has to do with the Kinsman redeemer which is another subject in itself. So there is no contradiction in the Messiah and the Word of God coming at the 2nd advent. Jerry Kelso

49. Jerry kelso - April 4, 2012

Bortmann, To your first post above these last two I commented on, you are right the coming of the Lord is not at the 7th trumpet in the middle of the tribulation. One must study the feasts and how the trumpets operate at them. The two witnesses do not represent the church and I agree.
Bortmann, why did you say there was no resurrection at the beginning, in the middle, or at the end. It plainly states in Revelation 20:5; This is the first resurrection. Jerry Kelso

50. Jerry kelso - April 6, 2012

Henry, You said that the rapture is Revelation 15:2-3; Revelation 20:4-6. Yet all there is is a resurrection of the dead. This goes in line with Hebrews 6:2 and John 11:24. The jews knew nothing about the rapture in the old testament, they only understood things considering the Kingdom of Heaven. This is why Paul said it was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Even the church was a mystery; Ephesians 3:3-6.
If you don’t understand the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God message of Jesus, then you cannot fully understand what the tribulation and the 2nd advent are about.
So why do you think that the church is raptured in Revelation 15 when all these are martyrs that are in heaven? There are no live people being raptured in a post rapture in the book of Revelation
As I have said before there is no plain scripture that says there is a mid-trib rapture happening. The closest is Revelation 11:15 talking about the Kingdoms of the world becoming Christ. However, we know this can’t be happening at that time because the 7 vials haven’t been poured out yet as the angels are making the announcement in the middle of the tribulation. Revelation 6 has to be a panoramic view of the tribulation if the wrath of the lamb is at the end of the tribulation. But there is nothing said about Christ coming back to rapture the dead and living here.
There is no plain statement to say a pre-trib rapture has happened. But in Revelation 1 the main theme was the 2nd advent and the jews; Revelation 1:7. Revelation 1:19 gives the time division for the book of Revelation. The thing that John saw was the vision of the stars and the candlesticks. The things that were at the present were the 7 churches of Asia who were the interpretation of the vision. They were to be over comers and the 7 churches are said to be 7 periods of history which is possible. Just because they went through tribulation doesn’t mean they were to go through the seals, trumpets, and vials even though some would argue the point since the 144,000 jews, the 2 witnesses and the tribulation saints are all heavenly people and will not be hurt of the 2nd death, etc. and would of course be over comers.
Revelation 2 and 3 the churches are not mentioned no more, except in Revelation 4 and 5 which are heavenly scenes before the tribulation begins.
1. Revelation 4:1 Door in Heaven, voice in heaven like a trumpet says: Come up hither and I will show you things hereafter. Hereafter what? The visions and the church age on earth. And the next thing that you see is the church in heaven represented by the 24 elders. Revelation 4:10; the 24 elders are casting crowns before the throne. Some think these are old testament saints but, this is conjecture. Revelation 5:10 says to the Lion of Judah; And hast made us kings and priest: and we shall reign on the earth. There is no proof to say these are only old testament saints. Incidentally, 24 elders represented the whole priesthood of old (1Chronicles 24:1-9) The names of the 12 tribes of Israel are written on the holy city of the New Jerusalem Revelation 21:10-14. So the point is that there is more evidence towards the present church not going through the tribulation. Because of the calling and order of God the church will not suffer wrath of the 7 year tribulation. This has nothing to do with God being a respect of persons or us being better than another dispensation, etc. I say this because most people try to portray this kind of picture on this subject. We might be more highly favored as a result than another dispensation but, not because God is a respecter of persons or that we are holier than thou type of people. If one wants to believe in another position that is fine, but, I don’t think he should be persecuted over it. Rightly dividing the word is another thing and this is why hermeneutics is important. Care to share? Jerry Kelso

51. Henry - April 6, 2012

Jerry,
The truth is that these discussions that don’t tend to go anywhere really is a distraction from the things I really want to write about at the present.

Nevertheless let me indulge you a little. Both myself and Bortmann are agreed that the “tribulation” period occurs before the 6th seal. However, your interpretation of the “tribulation” is that it occurs at the opening of the 7th seal commencing with the 7 trumpet judgements. So when we are disagreeing we are not comparing coming from the same position. I think myself and Bortmann agrees that the rise of the man of sin, the son of perdition, coincides with the “tribulation” period as this man must rise before Jesus comes. In 2 Thess 2 Paul told the Thessalonian church that they should not let anyone deceive them by any means that the day of the Christ is at hand because this day will not come until after the man of sin is revealed. By interpretation we believe that this person is the same one being referred to in Rev 13 who causes the mark to be issued. So when we say that Christ comes after the tribulation we are saying that He comes after the 5th seal at least. But your view is that the tribulation is in fact the wrath of the Lamb. So this is where we differ majorly.

But talking about hermeneutics, if not exegisis, is it your veiw that the temple of God is a future rebuilt temple in Israel? I think I already know the answer to that. But as far as I am concerned the temple of God today is the church. This is what scripture teaches. So the man of sin will sit not in a physical temple but the temple of God (the church) pretending to be God. Do your exegisis to ascertain what the temple of God is. The only other physical temple will be the one which descends from God in the New Jerusalem.

Anyway here are a couple of verses for you to consider concerning the church at Christ’s return:

4Whenever I pray, I make my requests for all of you with joy, 5for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now. 6And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

10For I want you to understand what really matters, so that you may live pure and blameless lives until the day of Christ’s return. (Ph 1:4-6, 10)

16Hold firmly to the word of life; then, on the day of Christ’s return, I will be proud that I did not run the race in vain and that my work was not useless. (Ph 2:16)

12That is why I am suffering here in prison. But I am not ashamed of it, for I know the one in whom I trust, and I am sure that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.

18May the Lord show him special kindness on the day of Christ’s return. And you know very well how helpful he was in Ephesus. 2 Tim 1:12

He will keep you strong to the end so that you will be free from all blame on the day when our Lord Jesus Christ returns. 1 Cor 1:8

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. To be read with Matt 24:45-51.

God Bless,

52. Jerry kelso - April 7, 2012

Henry, I would say that the reason it goes nowhere is because you are not understanding context. I have explained why Christ doesn’t come back in the 6th seal. I have explained why the wrath of the lamb is not the same as the wrath of God. You haven’t answered that yet.
As far as want to conversing about another subject is fine, it is your blog. But, I do believe that is only right to be fair. I am a truth seeker and a contender for the faith but, I am not trying to annihilate nobody.
You say we have a different position of which I had already stated. I believe I understand your hermeneutical view better than you know mine. It is one thing to say the wrath of God is the same as the wrath of the lamb but, you didn’t prove it by scripture. So then it becomes an assuming opinion. I say this because you use Isaiah 2 to prove Revelation 6 is why it the day of the Lord as one day which it is in most contexts. However, Revelation 16, which is the 7 vials is more than one day, but, it leads up to that one day known as the Day of the Lord. Now you cannot deny this because this is scripturally sound.
You have not answered to the point that Revelation 15 is a rapture of tribulation saints who have died only. There are no live people that went to heaven in this passage and Revelation 20:4-6; Hebrews 6:2; John 11:24 point this out. I have pointed out plain scriptures and context and yet all you can say is that we have a difference of opinion.
Paul said to say the same thing so there be no divisions among us. One has to be fair about exegesis and pliable to make a change if he needs to. This is food for thought. If you think I am wrong then tell me something of a logical explanation to the question I asked you which was a valid question because I answered to your statement about the wrath of the lamb being the second advent and your statement that you called it the wrath of God. I have backed up my explanation by scripture. I do not think that is reasonable.
2 Thessalonians is about the son of Perdition who is the antichrist and who will set up his kingdom in the middle of the tribulation. He will wear out the saints and try to completely overtake Jerusalem over but, he will not. He will have some control but, he will have trouble from tidings out of the North and the East. Daniel 11:35. Ezekiel 38 shows Russia and other countries like the king of the North and South recorded in Daniel and Libya and other Countries will make there way down to Armageddon. This is only after the Antichrist armies overtake them for they will not be for the Antichrist. The same way with China and other eastern powers, but, when the demon spirits overtake them and the 5th vial says the Euphrates is that gateway for them to make it to the battle of Armageddon to help Antichrist out.
The wrath of the lamb is just beginning and it will happen at the end as well. To be honest it almost hard to believe that any of the beast kingdom followers will be scared at all because they will be so deluded and such reprobates. Isaiah 2 says all classes of men will on the Day of the Lord. But the Day of the Lord is not the wrath of the Lamb. And even if the wrath of the Lamb was on the Day of the Lord it would still not be the same as the wrath of God. This is what you said before and this is one reason I am asking you to give me a plain scripture or scriptural context or real implication. I am not conversing with you to try to be right or swing you over to my side. I am a truth seeker and would like a fair and balanced debate.
You say that we are the temple of God and I don’t disagree with you if you give the scripture to back it up in it’s proper context. Corinthians bears this out. But, you have used prophetically and the temple is mentioned in Revelation 11 so surely you cannot use us as the temple of God in this passage. You did reference 2 Thessalonians and you spiritualized that scripture which means that you are spiritualizing Revelation 11. Because you don’t believe there is a 3rd temple you have to spiritualize scripture. Revelation 11, this is a physical temple in the middle of the tribulation and there will be a new temple according to Ezekiel 40-48 in the millennium. You are going to have to come up with something better than we are God’s temple. This is the problem with those who spiritualize scripture to the extreme and it becomes improper exegesis. There is no way to be consistent with this method which becomes assumption. Respectively, you need to rethink that again. What if I said according to Revelation 21:22 the temple of the Holy City is not physical because it is the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. I wouldn’t be wrong but, I would be leaving out the other scriptures like Revelation 3:12 that says there is a physical temple in heaven. That would be unfair. The only difference is that you used the same picture but, a different context. One can be right in their own context and be wrong to the biblical context. That is why according to one’s hermeneutics he can come out with a different interpretation than another even, though he may not be right. The same goes for the phrase I die daily.
The scriptures you gave all talk about the rapture for it is when Christ receives his saints. The second advent is not a receiving as we will come out of Heaven in white robes prepared for war and he will be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords not as the lamb.
If you are so certain of a post rapture why don’t you write it out approximately how it happens in approximate order down to the coming back to earth to make war and provide scripture to back it up or at least give a strong implication. This will be beneficial in understanding why you believe this. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

53. Henry - April 7, 2012

Jerry,
The problem with you is that you make assumptions about what others believe and then argue your point from those assumptions. I never used Isaiah 2 to establish or defend any of the points I have made so far yet you have repeatedly said I used Isaiah 2 to support Rev 6. This is not so but another of your assumptions. Similarly, I don’t remember having a discourse with you concerning whether or not the “wrath of God” and the “wrath of the Lamb” are the same yet you raised this and ask me to show you where scripture says they are the same. What I have in fact said is that I do not support the view that the “tribulation of those days” are the same as the “trumpet judgements” but rather that the “tribulation” is conincided with the rise of the beast of Rev 13 who issues the mark. If this is so (and I believe it is) then the beast must come to power before Christ comes. If he comes before Christ comes then the church will be here when that beast rises to power. That is what scripture points out.

If you want to believe that Rev 11:2 speaks of a future rebuilt temple then suit yourself. If you did your exegisis you would realise that such a temple cannot be the temple of God and if it is not then you need to review your interpretation of that portion of scripture. But I can see how you believe it fits your view of a 7 year tribulation in which the antichrist is supposed to descimate Israel for 3.5years. You have made your point and I have already established my position under the Eschatology category.

54. Jerry kelso - April 8, 2012

Henry, This is ridiculous. I don’t assume unless I say I am assuming. I go off of what a person says as fact or what they are using as basis for their belief. The scripture was given that said Isaiah 2 about the men going into the holes and clefts of the rock and hiding themselves from the Lord when he arises to shake terribly the earth. If you did not say this and I got the wrong person I am sorry, Either way, this talks about Christ arising to shake terribly the earth and has nothing to do with seeing the one who is sitting on the throne in Heaven. Revelation 19:11-15 is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords with his saints coming out of heaven to make war. The one who sits on the throne in Revelation 5 is God the Father and not the son and most likely this is the same in this chapter.
We did not have a discourse on the wrath of God and I said that it was said in passing. I looked again at the posts in pre-trib rapture and you say that the coming of the Lord or 2nd advent is the 6th seal and the 7th seal is the wrath of the lamb and used the term God’s wrath more than once as being in the 7th seal. This is not true for the wrath of God is after the vials. And you seem to think that the trumpet judgements are contained in the 7th seal. You also said that Antichrist reign was before the 6th seal which means that it is in the days of the 4 apocalypse which you mentioned. You also believe that the tribulation is only under the Antichrist when he is seen in the temple like in 2 Thessalonians. Yet, at the same time you say there is no physical temple that is desecrated. So you talk about us being the temple of the Lord which has nothing to do with Revelation 11. You want to say the tribulation is not 7 years. Why? Is it because that the 1260 days is mentioned for one part of the tribulation. I would agree with you that the time of Jacob’s troubles is the last 3.5 years. Daniel 12:1. And Revelation 13 is the rise of the beast which goes with tribulation as Daniel called the time of Jacob’s trouble which is the last 3.5. years.
I will say this your basis is that the 6th seal is the 2nd advent and the wrath of the lamb and God’s wrath or as God’s wrath, whichever you really believe is contained in the 7th seal.
The easiest thing to do is for you to give a brief overview of how the seals, trumpets, vials unfold and how the parenthetical passages work in those frames. That way I can give a more accurate account of what you believe and why, even though, I fairly know what your positions is.
In conclusion, the point as I have already agreed upon is the 3.5 years which covers the Antichrist reign and it is known as Jacob’s trouble. Daniel 12:1. We call this the greater tribulation. So there is no real disagreement here in that respect.
You match up the signs in Matthew 24 with Revelation 6 and you have to use Isaiah 2 also. Either way, just because it has similar signs doesn’t mean it is the final days leading into and becoming the 2nd advent. We are to compare scripture but, we have to totally understand the contexts as well. What is really disheartening is that you are so adamant about the Pre-trib rapture being wrong and yet your hermeneutics are much more riskier than the ones I use. The example is that you say the 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal and that is correct. However, you put the 2nd advent before it and then the 7th seal to be the wrath of the lamb of which the 144,000 are protected from under the trumpets. So I assume you believe that the 144,000 are the remnant or the live ones raptured at the end of the tribulation. You know the vials lead up to the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16.
You tell me if this is a fair assessment of how you believe. If not, then just plainly make an overview of what you believe.
As far as Matthew 24 being the 2nd advent I agree with, but, I wouldn’t agree with Revelation 6 being the same. All I ask is that you be fair and if I am misunderstanding your position then you plainly tell me and there won’t being any more excuses on either side. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

55. Henry - April 12, 2012

Jerry,
If you think I am being ridiculous please show me the post or comment in which I referred to Isaiah 2? I do not want to attack your character but you have a tendency to go off topic rather than to stick neatly to the issues in question. This is one of the reasons why we keep going backwards and forwards without fruition.

As far as I am concerned Matt 24:29-31 depicts the same events as the opening of the 6th seal in Rev 6 and Rev 7. Your basis for dismissing this does not amount to exegisis nor hermeneutics.

Your sole basis for rejecting this is that in the Matt 24 account a throne and Him that sat on it is not in view. But let me ask you this: who is “him that sitteth upon the throne”? Before you answer let me tell you:

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Rev 21

Can you now see that it is Christ (the Lamb) who is seen seated on the throne? Well for more evidence look at Rev 22:

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Note from the beginning of Revelation it is Christ speaking to John and revealing the hidden things that were to come to pass. To argue then that Matt 24 does not mention “Him that sitteth upon the throne” cannot be used to substantiate your argument because the verse clearly says they shall see the sign of the son of man in the heavens and coming in the clouds of heaven. It is up to you if you want to assume or rely on extra-biblical information that the sign of the Son of man is some kind of Jewish pagan symbol. As for me I will stick to scriptures.

Jesus said here in Mark 14:62 and Matt 26:64:

62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. see also Luke 22:69

It is clear to me therefore that Matt 24 was referring to “Christ seated on the right hand of power” as the sign of the Son of man. This is clear because the “sign” is seen first then He is seen descending and this is what He said in the verses quoted above.

Why then should you insert extra-biblical references or ideas here when scripture is clear? Get
this point right then the timing of the other events you refer to can fall into place.
Let me ask you another question, why do you insist that the “wrath of the Lamb” (the trumpet judgements) are distinct from the “wrath of God” (7 vials)?

Does scripture not tell us that it is Jesus who treads the winepress of the wrath of God?

Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. (Rev 19:15)

If it is Jesus who treads the winepress of the wrath of God then the “wrath of the Lamb” is not different but part and parcel of the same thing. Do you not know therefore that the earth is reaped of the good harvest before the wrath of God (and of the Lamb) is poured out? Read Rev 14:14-20. Now can you see why I say that the 6th seal is when the earth is reaped and the 7th seal is when the wrath of God is poured out? The son of Man reaps the earth from the cloud then wrath of God is poured out.

Do you not know that the mystery of God was to be accomplished in the time when the 7th angel was to sound?

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” (Rev 10:7)

Forget all of your preconceived views and objectively look at this and tell me if it is in line the scriptures or not.

56. Jerry kelso - April 14, 2012

Henry, We are having some miscommunication. First, I’d like to say that my first concern is just the overall repudiation of the Pre-trib rapture as being a false doctrine and those who believe it are false teachers. I have already made one post on this and this is far from the truth. The fact is, you can read through the bible and see how God has made provision for the righteous in tribulation. Noah and his family were saved in the ark, Abraham, and lot and his family were taken out before judgement came and many more. As far as false hope and laziness in the christian walk is ridiculous for either you are secure in Christ or not. Paul was when he said, I die daily because he believed in a resurrection of the body and to a better place. A christian occupies until he comes, he doesn’t become lazy and selfish. To make the argument because some show these wrong qualities doesn’t mean that the doctrine is wrong. If you want to expose those who are false at least do it about the ones that are not being true christians because of their actions. As I have said before just because you are pre, mid, or post doesn’t necessarily mean it is going to make you a false prophet or make you a bad christian. In the long run though, it could show how you rightly divide the word as a whole and that could be a different story.
I believe in line upon line and precept upon precept and I assume you basically do too. So, I believe we need to start again and this time I will tell you what I believe to be the right exegesis on the outline of the book of Revelation.
I believe that Revelation 1:11 shows the book was written first and directly to be sent to the 7 churches of Asia. The vision was the next thing John saw and then in Revelation 1:19 John was told to write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
The only thing John saw was the vision, the things that were present were the churches of Asia in his day and who were the next subject taken up with. The hereafter is recorded in Revelation 4:1. Revelation 4 and 5 both are heavenly scenes with the heavenly saints.
Chapter 6 has the lamb in Heaven opening the seals which show things on earth. The lamb is never seen on earth during the tribulation. His role when he comes back to earth will be as King of King and Lord of Lords. This does not dismiss the fact that he is the lamb no matter where he is. We are talking about roles.
I believe the seals, trumpets, and vials are consecutive not side by side or along each other as like a seal here and then a trumpet and then a vial etc. We definitely know this is the way that it unfolded to John.
There are parenthetical passages: Revelation 7; Revelation 8:2-6; Revelation 8:13; Revelation 9:12; Revelation 10:1-11;14.; Revelation 16:13-16. Revelation 17:1-7. These are all the parentheticals during the tribulation. Revelation 19:1-10 is in Heaven and is right before he comes back.
I believe a parenthetical interrupts the main thoughts of the seals, trumpets, and vials. They are in their proper place and as far as fulfillment they basically happen in and around wherever they are placed. This is not true with all of them such as Revelation 7 which the great multitude and the tribulation saints are together or the religious system in Revelation 17 whose fulfillment and demise is in the first half to the middle.
So I have told you my belief in the outline and parentheticals; so maybe you can better understand my line of thinking. Now, feel free to give yours. Thank you and God Bless! Jerry Kelso

57. Henry - April 20, 2012

Jerry,

Sentiments does not equate to biblical truth. Whether God has made provision for the rigtheous in times past in the face of tribulation is neither here nor there. That cannot be used to support a position that if that was the case then provision must be made for the church in the future. This is the assumption that the pre-trib position for instance is largely based on. Many ask why would the Lord allow His church to face the wrath of the anti-christ (beast kingdoms) and therefore supposes that the church will be rapture before the beast rises to power and issues the mark. But scripture does not support this view. I am not condemning anyone or saying that one who believes this view is lost. NO. On the contrary I raise these topics to demonstrate that many doctrines have come into the church but cannot be supported by scripture. I give these therefore as pointers to readers so that they may be encourage to examine every other doctrine that they have received. That is the purpose of the post and the overall purpose of the blog – to show people where errors exist and that arguably there are even more detrimental teachings spreading in the church which is why they should examine every doctrine in line with scriptures.

I noted from your last response that you have not responded directly to the points that I raised. The truth is though that we are not so far apart in our belief concerning this issue. However our difference lies in the fact that you categorise the events of the 7 seal as the “tribulation” whereas I am saying this is the “wrath” of God. Of course since we the church are not appointed unto wrath then of course we will not be subjected to the “wrath” – the 7th seal.

The clear mistake you make therefore is to coincide the rise of the beast to the wrath of God (and of the Lamb) at the 7th Seal and therefore call it the tribulation which is why you then surmise that the church must be removed prior to the tribulation. However scripture clearly says that the beast comes to power and it is after its reign that the wrath of God comes. Look at Rev 14:9-10

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

Can you now see why I say that the rising of the beast must be before the 6th Seal and cannot be at the 7th Seal?

58. Jerry kelso - April 20, 2012

Henry, It is true that God can protect his people through a situation or take them out of a situation and I wouldn’t argue the point. At the same time God has an order to everything and 1 Thessalonians says we are not to have the wrath to come.
1. Your wrath is just the battle of Armageddon I assume because this happens at the second advent. This is what post tribbers believe. Both positions are possibilities but, both cannot be true.
I don’t disagree with you that the conditions and signs of Revelation 6 will basically happen at the second advent. However, Revelation 6 is the beginning of the tribulation and you agree that the wrath of the lamb is the trumpet judgements and you include it as in the vials.
The classes of men in the tribulation are trying to hide from God and they see him who sits on the throne and says who can withstand the wrath of the lamb. If the wrath of the lamb is the trumpet judgements which is from the later part of the 1st half of the tribulation to the middle of the tribulation why would they say this if it were the last half of the tribulation at the second advent.? The answer is they would not say this. Now I understand that you say the wrath of the lamb and wrath of God are the same and this is true in the sense that the lamb is God. However, there is a distinction in which you do not consider and that is that Jesus role as the Lamb is always in Heaven and never on earth. Now I know we could argue the point that in Revelation 6 whether or not the lamb is coming to earth even though, it doesn’t give any implication that he will, but, Revelation 19:11 says Heaven opened and John saw a white horse and the one who sat on him was dressed in warrior attire, not the picture of the lamb.
Revelation 16 specifically calls it the wrath of God, not the wrath of the lamb. The wrath of the lamb is poured out in the trumpet judgements upon the earth and men who are tormented by the demons out of the abyss and the demon horsemen who come out of the river Euphrates and they can kill men. The 144,000 are protected through these trumpet judgements before they are raptured to heaven. Revelation 14:1-5.
The wrath of God is administered only on the beast kingdom followers who have taken the mark, etc. So if the wrath of the lamb is the trumpet judgements and the wrath of God is on the beast kingdom followers and one is in the 1st half and one is in the second half then they are not the same. Either way, you have two different time factors; the beginning wrath of the lamb who is in Heaven and never on earth and doesn’t descend to earth at the second advent and the wrath of God which culminates in to the second advent when Christ comes back.
The seals, trumpets and judgements happen in consecutive order. You either have to believe that the seals are a panoramic view of the whole tribulation and fit the trumpets and the vials accordingly or you are just merely comparing scriptures to what seems to be similar conditions and signs. As I’ve said before your time factor is not correct.
You never answered what you think of the parentheticals and how they work within the seals trumpets, and vials.
So the question begs of what if the correct way of interpretation? I’ve already told you mine which is basically that the seals, trumpets, and judgements are consecutive and the parentheticals work basically in and around them. There are exceptions as far as fulfillment such as the two babylons in Revelation 17 and 18. One is the religious system who is killed off in the middle of the tribulation and the literal babylon which is destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 16 and 18.
Your hermeneutics is either chiasms or just comparing scriptures. Chiasms is like putting a puzzle together. The outline of the tribulation is found in the seals. And then the details are in the trumpet judgements and the vials, of which you say is the only tribulation and I would agree that it is the greater tribulation known as Jacob’s trouble. Daniel 12:1. Jack Van Impe believes that and I respect him very much but, my question would be to him and you is how do you prove that that is the correct method to use?
I understand about comparing scriptures and the Revelation must have that, but at the same time it is slightly different about the way it was written.
Your position is a possibility but, the problem with comparing and trying to match something up is not sure proof that you match it up right. For instance, the black horse which has balances and ends up in famine is equated with the time of the antichrist for no man can buy or sell who has taken the mark. That is an assumption even though it would seem credible to believe. The truth is the antichrist is coming onto the scene in the apocalypse not beginning his beast kingdom.
So do you understand that you are right in your method of interpretation and so am I?This is why I say the method of interpretation is the deciding factor because, they both cannot be right. With your method you have to assume more than in my position.


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