Calvinism? Arminianism? What’s all the fuss about? October 14, 2010
Posted by Henry in Denominations.Tags: Arminianism, Calvinism, Corinthian Church, Denominations, divided church, doctrinal divisions, doctrines, Jacobus Arminius, John Calvin, Lutheranism, Martin Luther, Paul, protestant, protestantism
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In spite of Christ’s desire that we should all come into the unity of the faith, the church today has found itself in a place that is at odds with New Testament Christianity. The church today (i.e. the “protestant” church) seeks to assume the role of the true church (the ecclesia of Christ) yet it could not be any more divided on theoretical perspectives and denominational dogma. Not only did the reformation movement engender a split from the Catholic church to form the Protestant movement but it also create a schism within itself along theological schools of thought. Thus today we have descriptive terms such as Lutheranism, Calvinism or Arminianism by which Protestants may define themselves. Personally I refuse to subscribe to such limiting terms though fully recognising that it is not about personal sentiments but rather what the scriptural position should be. I therefore resent any notion that one cannot truly understand what Christianity means (or should mean) unless view through the eyes of Martin Luther, John Calvin or Jacobus Arminius, from whom the three theological schools aforementioned have been named.
It is interesting to note however that the divisions along doctrinal lines are nothing new to the church, since even the apostle Paul had to address this very same issue of division within the ranks of the Corinthian church. Paul writing to the Corinthian church therefore says this:
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor 1)
We see from this passage that the Corinthians were displaying the same behaviour being displayed in the church today, whereby one says I am of Luther, another of Calvin and another of Arminius. But I implore the church to heed Paul’s admonition here. Afterall is Christ divided or was Calvin or Arminius crucified for you or were you baptised in their name?
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17:22-23)
Spirit of Discernment 
It would be one thing if they all preached the same doctrine, but they don’t. They compete with each other. This is why I write about the Compete Word of God. It seems no one wants to write about or understands the complete word of God.
Henry, I agree with your assessment about the dilemma of saying the same thing.
I would like to say that there is a true church that the gates of hell shall never prevail against that has nothing to do with denominations and is perfect in love and is never divided. The professing church is another story. The key word in Corinthians is among. Also, it must be understood that these Corinthians came out of Idolatry and were used to catering to men that tickled their fancy. They were carnal in the fact that they were ignorant of the truth.
As far as the different schools of thought, many great christian men have come down through history. Others have had bad motives or believed a lie; whatever the cause the devil’s job is to steal, kill, and destroy lives and tear the church down.
We are perfect in love but, not in knowledge and we must be like the bereans to see if the propagators of truth are telling the truth. Rightly dividing the truth is for everyone to study not, just preachers.
With all that said, I do believe we could get closer to saying the same thing as a whole. Whether anyone knows or understands they have hermeneutics. Hermeneutics has been made a bad word and talking about doctrinal issues has had more than it’s share of heated arguments. At the same time the Bible says to reason, exhort one another, precept upon precept. challenge, etc. because iron sharpens iron.
Hermeneutical views show up in every belief system, whether Arminianism, Calvinism, Reformed, Dispensational Etc. Most of the time everyone has a little truth but, the danger is when they go to extremes. For example, Catholics have the same basic beliefs that Protestants do until you go to the extremes, like purgatory. This doesn’t mean that the extremes don’t need to be addressed, but, sometimes the extremes are not quite as bad and sometimes are not quite as divisive as we think. Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Post-rapture and Water Baptism are two. The reason they become divisive is because of what they appear to motivate people to do that is wrong or not good for their life and of course that seemingly goes against scripture.
Contradicting scripture is not a good thing and that is why it is important to reconcile all scriptures together on a given subject and understand the different age God did things that may be different for us today. Law vs. grace is one of these kind of subjects. An incorrect understanding of the word can mislead a person in their walk with God. An incorrect teaching can hamper a christians life. These can be seen as in can’t help but sin or we’re only human types of thinking which cause defeated or less than victorious lives lived. We have to be careful with those who are merely ignorant (lack of Knowledge) and those who are Bible thumpers that are not humble and eager to always be open to helping with the truth or learning the truth or who will be corrected if they need to be. Paul corrected Peter at Antioch and it was something that Peter knew better which was being a respect of persons leading to his hypocrisy. He succumbed to the truth and we have to be pliable to God and man for we are not perfect in our knowledge and we could be caught off guard by the enemy at any time.
In the long run we have denominations with well meaning christians in them probably until the rapture or apostasy whenever you think happens first. Denominations is the division sense is not scriptural and sorta was started and popularized by Constantine then branched out.
Even though I believe we need to preach the whole Bible there are some subjects that we need to talk about a little more. Food for thought; more christians know the law mentality instead of the grace mentality. It is the grace of God that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldliness and produces fruit in us of good works and being who we are in Christ by being witnesses as a norm instead of looking like the world. Peter said to arm ourselves with the example Christ had through his sufferings because if we suffer in the flesh we cease from sin. The reason in ceasing from sin is so we won’t be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh all our lives but, we will live to the will of God.
False teachers must be dealt with but, we need to better know the word and sometimes in some instances be careful of killing those who may really be on our side. I believe Joel Osteen is a great man of God but, he gets hit everyday by fundamentalists a little to some extreme. However I understand they have a valid reason to feel the way they do. I also believe I understand why he has answered in some ways and where his heart is. I do believe he need to study and be prepared more if he is going to get involved in those situations to have to answer those things he should. If he doesn’t God will hold him responsible because you cannot compromise about God’s word and I understand that is the issue. To be honest I have heard many preachers tell the truth according to the scriptures but, it wasn’t wise to say it. This is because they take some things out of another dispensation and try to apply it to our dispensation and our covenant and it is not what God intended. That’s for another time. God bless! May we study to show ourselves approved of God to rightly divide the word and brighten our corner where ever we may be and minister grace to the hearer. Jerry Kelso
Jerry kelso
Could you clarify for me a couple of comments? You said, “An incorrect teaching can hamper a christians life”. Can you back this up with scripture? You seem to embrace nearly all of Christianity in this “incorrect teaching” when you say, “Most of the time everyone has a little truth”. So I would assume that nearly all of Christianity is living a hampered Christian life. I wonder what would be so bad about not embracing all the truth of scripture, or our you advocating there is some consequence to not embracing all the truth. I wonder about your position since you made the comment, “you cannot compromise about God’s word”. So again, could you lay down some scripture on this subjects so it is not all opinion. If it is all opinion how can you say, “we must be like the bereans to see if the propagators of truth are telling the truth. Rightly dividing the truth is for everyone to study not, just preachers”. You are trying to say something but you give no opportunity to look at God’s word and lead us to the more Berean example. If we cannot compromise with the word of God, let us know what scripture says is so bad about living a hampered Christian life, since in your mind most of us only have a little truth and do not live according to the whole truth. If there is no serious consequences then this whole conversation is mute.
Do you have any examples of those who are living the whole truth?
glasseyedave
thegospelaccordingtothegospel.com
Glasseyedave, Usually I give scriptural proof and I apologize for not doing that even though both of the comments about rightly dividing the word and being like the bereans are scriptural. 2 Timothy 2:15; Acts 17:10-11.
To your point specifically, look at 1 Timothy 1:1-3; 4-11.
I have studied different doctrines in protestant and catholic doctrines and why they believe what they believe. History bears out different schools of thought such as Calvinism and Arminianism and thousands of others that interpret the Bible different. Sometimes it don’t matter at all and other times it does.
The Catholics believe basically in faith and morals and Jesus being the only way to heaven and they believe in healing, etc. So they have the most important truth just like the Protestants. But, they go haywire when then they go to the extreme with doctrines like purgatory, transubstantiation and etc.
Once Saved, Always Saved can cause some to live defeated lives and in some cases, not be saved at all, some to apostate. Satan has all kinds of ways to try and trip us up. Paul said we must not be ignorant of Satan’s devices. 2 Corinthians 2:11. As I say Catholics have basic knowledge of the truth of the word and they have scriptures for purgatory that are pretty sanitized and will give you a different picture than maybe what you might think. The whole of universalism that say everyone will eventually be saved because God is to reconcile the whole world to himself. Also, there understanding of the word forever in those cases is age which is not true. There are other reasons but, suffice to say it can cause a person to live to the flesh and die and go to hell thinking it won’t be no problem cause they will eventually go to heaven and everything will be alright. I don’t want nobody to go to hell but, Hebrews 9:27; It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.. There is nothing that implies that one gets a second chance after death to get right with God.
I’ll say one more thing because I have an appointment I have to go. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 there were contentions among them and they were supposed to being saying the same thing so there be no divisions among them. Water Baptism was one of the vices and he told them; were you baptized in the name of Paul. Paul said, God didn’t send him to Water Baptize but, to proclaim the gospel, not with wisdom of words lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. Water Baptism is still one of the biggest vices today in Christianity. The problem is just about everyone don’t really understand Water Baptism at all. When you understand the truth many of those argument become trivial and of no value. I’d be glad to talk about it but, I’m out of time and that is for another post. If you want more scriptures I’ll be glad to give them. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
Jerry Kelso,
We are all called to rightly divide the Word of truth. Moreover we are all called to be “one” in Christ, having the same doctrine and not just some of the truth. The Body of Christ, which is the Church must demonstrate this trait. One cannot walk contrarily to the Body and still claim to be one with the Body. The problem arrises when we have different people professing different things and it is all exalted as truth. My post did not meant to endorse Catholics in anyway as professing to be the true church. As far as I am concerned most of what they teach is false and it was necessary for Martin Luther to have done what he did by separating from the Catholic faith.
As for Joel Osteen, it is a matter of your opinion that he is a “great man of God”. I do not support that view. In my view Osteen’s is a man-centred doctrine that seeks to glorify self rather than to preach “Christ crucified”. What does “living your best life now” have to do with salvation? Does Mr Osteen’s view of “living your best life now” inclusive of the much tribulation through which we must enter the Kingdom of Heaven, as taught by Paul? If we should live our best life now why should we bother even hope for Heaven? His doctrine however is akin to the Laodecians who thought they were rich and enjoying life but their hearts were far from God. What happened to “having food and raiment there with be content”?
Henry, I do understand your desire to contend for the faith, I believe in that to. I too, believe that we should be aware of the extremes doctrinally for there are wolves out there. As far as endorsing Catholics I never thought you were but, I am not in endorsing denominations. But, we have them, some good, some bad, etc. Martin Luther was definitely perfect in everything he believed because of his seemingly view which some said resulted in anti-semitism. If this were true then that would definitely not have been koshered. The main thing is that we get good counsel when we do go extreme that may seem to be questionable.
I believe there are certain things are not as divisive as they should be. Just because you don’t believe the same way I do on different issues, I certainly wouldn’t say you are not a christian or a false teacher.
With that said I am sure we both understand about what may cross the line.
I don’t know Brother Joel personally, even though I believe I have seen his real heart for God and it would be hard pressed for me to say that he is not a christian. I do understand your position. I believe Charles Stanley is a man doing his best to serve God but, I don’t agree with his UES doctrine which I believe is detrimental to many. For sure both will have to be judged by God.
I understand the Apostle Paul put his life on the line for the Lord every day, 1 Corinthians 15:31. So I am sure we agree on many points.
We are not perfect in our knowledge and when we are wrong it needs to be corrected. I would say this about Joel Osteen is that he is so sick of the legalism in American churches. The only gospel according to PAUL WAS THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION. Many fundamentalists preach more hell, fire and brimstone. Now I would say that sometimes that message needs to be preached but, it’s not the gospel and it needs to be preached in the correct manner.
Some preach the sermon on the mount and the gospels in the wrong manner and cause many to live defeated and under the bondage of the law mentality. Others say the right things scripturally and subconsciously make people believe they are always backslidden. This is why the church is in much of the state that they are; at least the professing church.
I have listened to Brother Joel’s preaching and I don’t recall him saying anything way out of the way. His principles are bible based and fitted to everyday situation of life according to grace. The truth is that he is preaching grace where as many others like hard line fundamentalists tend to lean towards law keeping. We have many who are under the age of grace and live and preach the law without realizing it. It is not what we do, but, who we are in Christ and the power of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ that, resides in us. We do the works because of who we are in Christ and his power.
This is a different day vs. Paul in some ways, but, there are those everyday that give their life for the Lord. Most of those people many times are in countries that do not have the freedom of religion like we do even though that climate is changing.
Your best life now is that we are blessed and set in Heavenly and High place. We are favored of God as his chosen people. Paul did judge his flock and he had a lot of teaching for those who had no knowledge of God as well as the ones who thought they knew everything. But, his teachings are more about who they were in Christ and encouraging them and when they might slip and fall he was to exhort them that it wasn’t behoving of them as christians. It was a reminder of love that he expected better things of them of what he had taught. In Colossians 3 he admonished them whereas he was much stronger than Galatians 3:1 where he had a much stronger tone calling the Galatians foolish.
So in conclusion, I would say that many of the Word of Faith teachers seem to be on a track of overcoming but, not majoring on the negatives as much as the positive. Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland I know for a fact have been through much sever tribulation but, they have come out tried by fire and still serving God. I may not agree with every jot and tittle but, they seem to be great men of God. People used to get mad at Smith Wigglesworth because he used to hit people in the stomach when praying for their healing and he said he was hitting the enemy and couldn’t help if they got in the way. The thing was is that those people got healed so the only one complaining was those people that didn’t like his technique. I only say this because it’s human nature to think negatively if it is different than what we are used to you.
I believe some of the things that people in those circles are not exactly right but, they are not exactly wrong. For example, to use the old testament as a foundation for giving in the New Testament I believe is wrong because the law was done away with and that was giving out of necessity according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 9:7. But 2 things they are right about is giving based on laws of sowing and reaping and faith. 1 Corinthians 9:7 and Hebrews 11:6. And there is a 3rd one which is Hebrews 7 the risen Lord who is our High Priest from the priesthood after Melchisedec and not the Levitical priesthood.
Now I understand I may stand to be corrected for after all Paul talked about those perverting the Gospel of Christ even, though he was talking to the Judaizers who constantly were trying to undermine what Paul taught. I don’t believe Joel has this intention and unless you can present where he errs in his teaching specifically it is hard pressed for me to make a judgement according to the scripture.
I will say this he needs to study more and not downplay certain things so much and talk about not being a scholar etc. I do agree that he was wrong in some things he said to Larry King even though I don’t believe he was saying something opposite of the Bible. I know he believes in Heaven and Hell but, he could have expressed those thing much better including the law and grace issue. Only God knows what his motive was even though I believe he was just tired of those issues that become divisive. At the same time you have to stand up for the truth and be ready to give an answer to the world by giving the truth. If he did compromise; and I haven’t read enough to necessarily say he would have to repent and learn from his mistakes and correct them. We all have to be pliable to the truth. Peter was when Paul got after him at Antioch for being a respect of persons.
I’d better stop, I’m sorry for being so long, but, I look forward to hearing what you feel scripturally feel he errs in. At the same time I will try and look up some of those things he has said. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
Jerry Kelso,
I have no interest in being divisive. In my view however divisiveness comes into the equation when one does not want to accept truth. I do not automatically brand an individual as a false teacher just because they disagree with me (or rather my interpretation of the scriptures) on certain points. However if the speak falsely even in sincerity then we must call a spade a spade – therefore we must say that the doctrine itself is false. They befit the label of false teachers when they seek to continue to propagate their errors without standing correction. We all have a responsibility to handle the word of truth correctly and not deceitfully (2 Cor 4:2; 2 Tim 2:15).
Paul admonished us to be of the same mind concerning Christ and whilst I do not claim to know all truth this blog is an attempt to point people back to the word of truth where they err. Perhaps you need to study Copeland and Hagin more carefully before you endorse them as true prophets of God.
Henry, I wasn’t trying to say you were trying to be divisive so, I apologize if that was the perception.
I totally agree with you overall and I do believe that some of them go to seed on many of their teachings. It would be interesting to see what their replies to allegations against them would be. This is one thing I am very interested in because while, I know there are eternal truths throughout the old and new, there are certain things we have to be careful accept out of different dispensations that would cause us to live defeated and wrench scriptures out of context such as, ie; tithing. I wouldn’t indict them on giving because of stewardship, Honoring God, faith or the laws of sowing or reaping. But, giving a tenth compulsory wise, out of necessity, fear, etc. is wrong. That part of the doctrine would be false, no doubt and would need to be corrected. I think they need to be approached and I believe I am going to do my best to find out from them instead of just attacking their whole character as being violently against God.
We have conversed on things such as the pre-trib rapture and you are very direct in saying that it is a false doctrine or detrimental to christians. Now your reasoning is that it teaches people to be lazy for God and soft because they are going to miss it. I don’t disagree with you that that is the attitude of some people. I disagree that it is the teaching of that position because the teaching of the word is that we are to occupy until he comes and be willing to lay down our lives for Christ every moment of our lives. So it is peoples ignorance not the word being wrongfully rendered that thwarts that attitude. But, if I assassinated your character for that and said you totally had no love for God, I believe you would be very hurt. Brother Joel Osteen was hurt by some comments and I believe he has love for God when his emotions come out. God will have to judge for he knows the true intent of the heart.
Case in point, Paul told the Corinthian Church that he had already judged in the matter of the man having wrongful sexual relations with his mother and said to not fellowship with them and send him to the devil for the destruction of his flesh. The problem was no one wanted to give the poor man reconciliation and Paul had to talk to them again. It wasn’t his teaching that went awry but, the people[s thought process. Paul wanted him to be reconciled in 1 Corinthians 5:5, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus..
As much as I am against Unconditional Eternal Security across the board, I find it hard pressed to find much of anything else that Charles Stanley is not christian who is trying his best in every way that he knows how to live for God. In the end he will definitely be judged for his teaching just like you or I.
I definitely understand your concern and have no problem with contending for the word and calling a spade a spade. I welcome your thoughts. Sincerely, a truth seeker, Jerry Kelso God Bless!
Jerry Kelso,
You keep bringing up the attitudes and hearts of those who preach false doctrines according to scripture as a basis to try to understand their hearts.
Funny, I do not see your attitude in scripture when it comes to false doctrines.
Jesus should have tried to understand the money changers in the temple. After all they did worship at the temple aslo and demonstrated emotions of love towards God. They only wanted those who could not travel with large portions of items to Jerusalem to be able to do what the Law of Moses told them to do. Sell your tithes, go to Jerusalem, then buy them back again to go to the temple.
Paul should have been a little more understanding of those who preached circumcision to the church of Galatians. After all they too loved God and were very zealous of Him. Besides there is the everlasting covenant to be circumsized in the Law of Moses. And we all know even Paul told the church in Galatians we gentiles have been encluded in the promises given to Abraham. Couldn’t these God loving Jews had cincear hearts to hold fast the ordinance of circumcision. Paul did not have to assasinate their characture by saying they should be cursed. Think of all the other areas in which they were ok in their love and devotion for God.
I could go on and you know I could, but I think you get my point.
It is not the emotions that one has, Did not Ciaphas rend his garment with a huge display of emtotion? It is not ones intention, it is not ones desire or characture that is important in scripture. The correct word of God takes precidence over all of those things you want Henry to consider.
Jesus and Paul do not show your kind of attitude for those who teach and claim to lead the blind. Why would you not want Henry to defend the gospel like they did? Because you do not want to hurt feelings? Scripture says if you are ashamed of me and my gospel, I will be ashamed of you before my father.
If people like Henry do not stand up and have the world hate them because he is not considering feelings and emotions towards God with the objects of his disagreement and he backs down and does not defend the word of God, what is he but ashamed of His gospel before men.
These men can not do both, they can not lead men to God and lead them astray at the same time. Either they gather or they scatter. Their emiotions, will, desire, characture have nothing to do with how we should address their doctrine!
glasseyedave
thegospelaccordingtothegospel.com
Jerry Kelso,
I kind of get the angle you are coming from. But I do not attack anyone’s character by judging them and claim that they are violently against God. Here is what I believe. There are some who teach error in sincerity such as tithing for example. The teach not because their purpose is to deceive God’s people but perhaps because this is what they themselves were taught. It still doesn’t make the doctrine true however and efforts should be made to correct these false teachings. Such teachers however are more likely to be susceptible to correction.
On the other hand you have downright false teachers who enter into the church to devour the flock and bringing damnable heresies. Such will not turn away from the false teachings when they are corrected because the are agents of the devil. When we therefore see false teachings of any sort we should confront it head on whether or not the teacher is sincere. I am not into character assassination but rather I will address the teaching – the doctrine – to see if those things line up with scripture or not. Jesus warns that many false prophets shall arise and deceive many such that if it were possible they would have deceived the very elect. How do they achieve this by mixing a poison cocktail of truth with falsehood. Oh yes! False prophets will quote Christ but intermingle this with their false doctrines even of devils. So how should we respond this? A little leaven leavens the whole lump so we need to be careful of the doctrine we receive. Many in the church today do not apply discernment (like the Bereans in Acts 17:11) but rather they allow false teachers to come into the churches and take over the pulpits saying that we, “should not judge” and that we should “dwell in love” and as a result many of these false prophets are elevated as great men and women of God. Well Paul tells us:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Rom 16:17)
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. (Eph 4:14)
John also tells us:
Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. (1 John 4:1)
The church aren’t doing these things today which is why false prophets roam freely in our churches. As for me, by God’s grace I will continue to confront error in order to warn others so that they may come out of deception. This is the purpose of this blog.
Henry, Paul said to judge all spiritual things. Judging the doctrine is much easier in some ways than judging character unless it is obvious or you know them well enough, but, God knows everyone’s intent and motives and he will definitely judge us all.
Many people feel we shouldn’t judge at all but, the only reason is that Jesus said, Judge not lest ye be judged. They don’t seem to understand the context is that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees who were hypocrites and if we have a mote in our eye what right do we have to judge others about their shortcomings and mistakes. Jesus was constantly attacked by the Pharisees so he knew their hearts and could judge them personally as well.
So I do believe we can expose doctrine and character, but if and when we do we better know we are right on our position on doctrine and character. Also, I find myself going back to what I believe on say a doctrinal viewpoint and try to make sure whether that doctrine according to the word really makes people respond a particular way. For example, there are people who believe in unconditional eternal security not as a license to sin because it doesn’t effect them that way. Others they hold onto it and their lives reveal they live carnal so it seems they use it as license to sin. So I try to go deeper to whether or not the scripture can definitely declare that position is wrong. The reason is that on the position of the pre-trib rapture people take advantage of being caught up and missing tribulation that they become lazy for God. But, the word is against being lazy until he comes so, though, people act negatively it is not the fault of the position itself.
I trust you understand what I am saying. We still have to be strong contending for the faith. I have read so many other blogs that make out that many of these TV evangelists are like most evil that they have no relationship with God and are out to get everybody. With that said there are many that are that way and have no business on TV. Stereo typing in general can be dangerous but, it should make us be aware and ready to go case by case and always contend for the truth of the word. God Bless!
Glasseydave, I agree wrong is wrong and right is right. I agree that people can mean well and miss the boat and cause damage. I agree that people need to be corrected if they err, the bible agrees with that. I believe in defending the faith just like Jude.
Most cases in the bible of false teachers were those who were very staunch in their stand to stir up a hornet’s nest and to mislead people. Addressing these people are quite different than those that made mistakes through ignorance of not having the right knowledge. Look at the way Jesus handled the Pharisees in Matthew 23. It was rather severe. Quite different than how Jesus dealt with his disciples as a whole throughout his ministry.
My point was basically all of us want to believe that we know the right truth and it is easy to judge. Though we are to judge all spiritual things we have to be careful if we have a mote in our eye whether it is pride of knowledge to the extreme, etc. Paul had so much knowledge of God’s revelation that many others did not have and he was given a messenger of Satan to buffet him and this is why he had all the different severe trials that he had.
I’ve known some of these TV evangelist that get beaten down to the extreme unjustly. It didn’t mean they were completely perfect but, they did get reconciled and I praise God for that. But, they certainly not an inkling as bad or a renegade for Christ as many fundamentalists made them out to be.
This is why I said what I did about the position of pre-trib rapture. There are misnomers that are said about those who hold this position that is not true. Some people’s character have been pointed out as evil according to this position and that their position was evil too. I believe I made the biblical case for the position and definitely for why it didn’t really make people do wrong things like they were accused of, thus, making them like a heretic.
So I don’t disagree necessarily with the bulk of what you are saying. I am saying we have to be careful what we say is false according to the word cause we could end up being the one that is wrong on a position when we thought we are right. I hope this is a little clearer for you. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
Jerry Kelso,
I feel the danger with your way of thinking is no teaching will be called on the carpet because there is a danger the one who is doing the questioning of the other doctrine just might be the in the wrong. Therefore we should be paralized to defend the gospel.
GlasseyDave, I believe in contending for the faith and that doctrine must be corrected and that those being corrected should should come under correction. Peter come under correction of Paul in Antioch. This was a very easy call because it was very obvious. Other things are not quite as obvious. Sometimes it takes a good understanding of a person’s whole theology before you understand certain statements they make. For instance, some TV evangelists have been persecuted because they quoted the scripture about christians being God. Everyone branded them as heretics because they said, they were equating themselves with God across the board. If this was true why would they say to rely completely on God as their source for their need. Their context was about being like Christ as in the scripture that says we must be imitators of Christ, not that we are actually God’s to be worshipped and adored and etc. So sometimes they get a bum rap from certain people who misunderstand what they say.
My main point is that the church is to judge all spiritual things. I Corinthians 6:1-8. We cannot have a mote in our eye and judge motives of people, otherwise we become the hypocrite. Matthew 7:1-5. He also shows the hypocrisy of the jewish leaders in his day Matthew 6:1-5 and a stinging judgement of the pious scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23.. When Jesus talked to Israel they were a backslidden nation. The true church is not to be backslidden or divided for the gates of hell shall never prevail against it. Matthew 16:18. The church is to be perfect in love. The professing church is another thing.
I would like to know why Joel Osteen’s preaching is considered another gospel or fluffy gospel according to the word. I understand the mishaps he has made on inadequate answers, which should be corrected, but, can you really discredit everything else that may be right that they believe?
What I am trying to say and this is food for thought. Many on this site make out that anyone who believes in the pre-trib rapture is teaching a false gospel and make out like they are misleading people to the extreme and make them act certain ways with impure motives. I have pointed this out and I believe I have made the case that this is not true. It was not the doctrine that made them react badly as far as the truth of the word. But, at the same time I would never send those people to hell or make out like they were misleading people in a bad way. People have the right to say what they feel about the position but, we all have to be sure what we believe according to what the position says and not cast a bad perception just because someone is acting up. Another words, we have to make sure whether or not the doctrine is biblical and that it is causing the person to act up in the wrong manner or not. Sometimes it is easy to stereotype a person unfairly because of their actions. Some actions stem from bad doctrine and others do or not.
So I am sorry if I sounded like I was trying to giving people a pass but, I have seen too many persecuted unmercifully when I knew for a fact they were dedicated Christians. This is expected of unbelievers but, should not be for believers. This is why it is sadly said that Christians wound their own. Henry and most all christians believe in contending for the faith so we are usually going after the extremes more than just mere open rebels like the judaizers in the early church. God Bless! jerry kelso
GlassyDave, I am not against judging but, only in the right perspective. In the early church it was the Apostles who set doctrine and judge the flock in their own congregation. They didn’t infringe on each other as a general rule.
Obviously, Paul corrected Peter in Antioch for respect of persons.
Individually, as saints according to Paul in the Corinthian church we are here to judge spiritual matters because we will judge angels In Timothy if we suffer we shall reign. So this is our purpose and destiny in this life for we will judge in the millennial kingdom.
We can know others by their fruits and point that out.
Their are many just like I said before that think or give the perception that pre tribbers are false prophets and bound for hell which, I have already made the case of why that is not true but, I didn’t and don’t indict those people of being false prophet. Most of those people I don’t even know. For example, if you really understand the Catholic doctrine of purgatory the way the Catholic hierarchy explains it by scripture you wouldn’t necessarily think it so crazy. That doesn’t necessarily mean they are trying to sanitize it or cover it up, even though that is a possibility. I don’t believe it but, in one sense, motive wise; who wants to see a person go to hell?
So my overall point is some people that are trying to do their best for God and are sent to hell. I understand there are some things that are obvious and are easy calls and they must be made. Then there are other things that people go to seed on that I don’t believe are going to send them to hell. For example, there are some church people that get on to the TV evangelists who ask people to send them money and God will bless them but, they themselves believe that they have to at least give a tenth for God to bless them or the devil is going to devour the crops. What is the difference except the TV evangelists have more faith and usually don’t threaten them or their crops. The doctrine is more fear based but, I don’t think necessarily those people will go to hell. If you believe that, let me know and why.
In Jesus day, he dealt with people who were ignorant (lack of Knowledge), different than the rebellious teachers of the day. At the same time was you have been given knowledge is to be repentant and learn from your mistake. I hope this is clearer cause as I say I am not against judging spiritual matters, I do think we have to be careful of certain things that are not quite as clear as one might think according to the word and especially understanding the whole of what a person believes. Kenneth Copeland may have to extreme on name it and claim but, he had a little truth and what most people just thought it was a principle game and they didn’t have a relationship with God. Copeland has a relationship with God. If you are living by faith which, without faith it is impossible to please God. An unbeliever doesn’t understand spiritual things and has no relationship with God. We have to be wise about handling the word and be careful about going to seed on a certain point sometimes because, we can get tunnel vision and before we know it we get off the beaten path. But, for the grace of God there we go. So I am not against judging, but, there must be a proper perspective. Because even those who judge can go to seed. The great Keith Green felt God wanted him to give his records away instead of selling them. This was fine for him but, he thought every other artist should do and God said He dealt with him and not them. The others may had not been at that point of faith in their life. Well, I think I said enough, I better quit for I go to extreme of babbling on and on. God Bless! Jerry Kelso